The mess in the Gulf has created all manner of opinions about:
- who's to blame/responsible
-what should be done
-what shouldn't have been done
-etc.
-etc.
Where were all these experts when the guidelines (make that REQUIREMENTS) were established for this type of operation?
While there is plenty of finger-pointing and blame to go around now, let's go back to the day before the incident (sorry, can't call it an accident):
On the day before the incident, did you think government regulated/interfered too much with private enterprise? Not enough?
On the day before the incident, did you expect government or the private sector to be ultimately responsible for the safety of private industry operations?
Do you have the same opinions now?
- who's to blame/responsible
-what should be done
-what shouldn't have been done
-etc.
-etc.
Where were all these experts when the guidelines (make that REQUIREMENTS) were established for this type of operation?
While there is plenty of finger-pointing and blame to go around now, let's go back to the day before the incident (sorry, can't call it an accident):
On the day before the incident, did you think government regulated/interfered too much with private enterprise? Not enough?
On the day before the incident, did you expect government or the private sector to be ultimately responsible for the safety of private industry operations?
Do you have the same opinions now?
Of course I have an opinion.
When permits were being drawn for this, and other new drills, the biologist's reports were very negative but they were told to amend or hide their reports and the permits were given over their objections. It appears that this happened under the previous administration BUT I'm not sure the procedures have changed under the current one.
Haliburton was the last to work on the pipe deep (appr 1 mile down) and 20 hours the things blows. This is very similar to last years 'incident' off the coast of Australia. This is not an uncommon occurance after putting the concrete in place at the ocean floor.
Whoever (BP) was manning the platform and the gauges saw that there was a potential problem with the mix of gasses and debris in the pipe and that the shut off system was leaking. I'm not really sure what they did about it but ultimately 11 are dead because it wasn't taken seriously.
Legislators allowed a cap of 75 million for the clean up of any leak. Brilliant.
My feeling is that if Halliburton is found guilty of cutting corners (imagine that) and doing substandard work then they should be held almost completely accountable. If the platform owner (name is escaping me and too lazy to look it up) was monitoring the gauges then they should also bear the brunt of the cost of clean up (unfortunately they just paid off their stockholders with a big payoff so not sure they have much money left!). BP is in a position to make profits off this operation. I feel like if they are allowed to make unlimited profits then they should also be ultimately responsible for paying for the clean up and they can collect from the other parties if they are found guilty of wrong doing.
The government shouldn't have sat back and counted on the private sector to do the right things quickly. They should have been right there working on solutions more quickly and then fined/charged the guilty parties.
IMHO
When permits were being drawn for this, and other new drills, the biologist's reports were very negative but they were told to amend or hide their reports and the permits were given over their objections. It appears that this happened under the previous administration BUT I'm not sure the procedures have changed under the current one.
Haliburton was the last to work on the pipe deep (appr 1 mile down) and 20 hours the things blows. This is very similar to last years 'incident' off the coast of Australia. This is not an uncommon occurance after putting the concrete in place at the ocean floor.
Whoever (BP) was manning the platform and the gauges saw that there was a potential problem with the mix of gasses and debris in the pipe and that the shut off system was leaking. I'm not really sure what they did about it but ultimately 11 are dead because it wasn't taken seriously.
Legislators allowed a cap of 75 million for the clean up of any leak. Brilliant.
My feeling is that if Halliburton is found guilty of cutting corners (imagine that) and doing substandard work then they should be held almost completely accountable. If the platform owner (name is escaping me and too lazy to look it up) was monitoring the gauges then they should also bear the brunt of the cost of clean up (unfortunately they just paid off their stockholders with a big payoff so not sure they have much money left!). BP is in a position to make profits off this operation. I feel like if they are allowed to make unlimited profits then they should also be ultimately responsible for paying for the clean up and they can collect from the other parties if they are found guilty of wrong doing.
The government shouldn't have sat back and counted on the private sector to do the right things quickly. They should have been right there working on solutions more quickly and then fined/charged the guilty parties.
IMHO
PLEASERMENU wrote:
The government shouldn't have sat back and counted on the private sector to do the right things quickly. They should have been right there working on solutions more quickly and then fined/charged the guilty parties. IMHO
They were busy watching porn. Your text to link here...
Mr. C
Funny Mr. C. I saw your link elsewhere. The biologists weren't, the administrators were. And what's wrong with porn anyway? Just wonderin.....
m
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OK, you want links relative to what I posted:
Gauges ignored
Stakeholders get paid but whose paying for the clean up?
Haliburton info
OK, I forgot to include that this was an act of 'God'
Oh, I forgot this too, the ocean will clean itself!
Damn wildlife playing it up
And I can't find the link about the biologists being hushed.
Mr C, you made me work and it's not my preferred type of late night activity. (not sure my links will work as I've never tried to include them on this site.
Gauges ignored
Stakeholders get paid but whose paying for the clean up?
Haliburton info
OK, I forgot to include that this was an act of 'God'
Oh, I forgot this too, the ocean will clean itself!
Damn wildlife playing it up
And I can't find the link about the biologists being hushed.
Mr C, you made me work and it's not my preferred type of late night activity. (not sure my links will work as I've never tried to include them on this site.
Here you go:
Biologists vs. Engineers
Biologists vs. Engineers
Sorry for the work. I am all for porn it is just that it was on the job.
It don't really count oil companies in the private sector, they are government granted and protected monopolies with limited liability. They need to act quicker on problems like these, seems to be a trend of slow movement in the gulf problems.
It don't really count oil companies in the private sector, they are government granted and protected monopolies with limited liability. They need to act quicker on problems like these, seems to be a trend of slow movement in the gulf problems.
LOL Yeah thats it...'Haliburton was the last to work on the pipe deep (appr 1 mile down) and 20 hours the things blows. This is very similar to last years 'incident' off the coast of Australia. This is not an uncommon occurance after putting the concrete in place at the ocean floor."
Good old haliburton LOL Please supply proof. BP fucked UP and the Government just flat out does not know how to stop the carnage. I will tell you this, expect and increase in the unemployment rate by as much as 2 percentage points.12-15% Obama and dems need this like they need a hole in the head.
Good old haliburton LOL Please supply proof. BP fucked UP and the Government just flat out does not know how to stop the carnage. I will tell you this, expect and increase in the unemployment rate by as much as 2 percentage points.12-15% Obama and dems need this like they need a hole in the head.
An interesting perspective about deregulation vs. counting on corps to do the right things plus other interesting stuff
"Deregulation" is wonderful until we discover what happens when
regulations aren't issued or enforced. Everyone is a capitalist until a
private company blunders. Then everyone starts talking like a socialist,
... presuming that the government can put things right because they see it
as being just as big and powerful as its Tea Party critics claim it is.
But the truth is that we have disempowered government and handed vast
responsibilities over to a private sector that will never see protecting
the public interest as its primary task. The sludge in the gulf is,
finally, the product of our own contradictions."
(Sorry for being redundant Mr. C but I thought this fit the discussion.)
Mr Free, are you needing proof from me? I did include a link re: Haliburton but there are plenty more I'm sure.
Obama walked knowingly into disaster zone that just never ends.
"Deregulation" is wonderful until we discover what happens when
regulations aren't issued or enforced. Everyone is a capitalist until a
private company blunders. Then everyone starts talking like a socialist,
... presuming that the government can put things right because they see it
as being just as big and powerful as its Tea Party critics claim it is.
But the truth is that we have disempowered government and handed vast
responsibilities over to a private sector that will never see protecting
the public interest as its primary task. The sludge in the gulf is,
finally, the product of our own contradictions."
(Sorry for being redundant Mr. C but I thought this fit the discussion.)
Mr Free, are you needing proof from me? I did include a link re: Haliburton but there are plenty more I'm sure.
Obama walked knowingly into disaster zone that just never ends.
Plain and simple. You take the risk you get the reward. You screw up you pay the price. So if you want need to drill in environmentally sensitive areas, you better have a huge war chest to pay for any potential damages or a bond that will cover it. You better have a plan and procedures in place to prevent such things, or you will not be allowed to drill. As for paying investors a huge dividend and then claiming not to have the cash to pay for it, well a corporation is a legal body of the whole of its officers and investors, as such each one is responsible for its actions, and should be held financially accountable (they pay) for any screw ups. They get the reward for their ownership in the corporation as dividends payed to them, they should pay dividends to clean up any screw up their company makes. Not as difficult as it would seem. Yes people would be less likely to invest in a company if they know that by doing so they will be held responsible to pay out for it's screw ups, but then only the best companies will be in operation. Personal accountability. The antidote to all our social ills. Each person should be accountable for their participation in an event, rewarded for its success, and accept responsibility for its failure. No more "I was just following orders" or "hey I didn't know they were going to do that" or "I just own stock, i don't run the operation".
WILDONEZ2004 wrote:
Plain and simple. You take the risk you get the reward. You screw up you pay the price. So if you want need to drill in environmentally sensitive areas, you better have a huge war chest to pay for any potential damages or a bond that will cover it. You better have a plan and procedures in place to prevent such things, or you will not be allowed to drill. As for paying investors a huge dividend and then claiming not to have the cash to pay for it, well a corporation is a legal body of the whole of its officers and investors, as such each one is responsible for its actions, and should be held financially accountable (they pay) for any screw ups. They get the reward for their ownership in the corporation as dividends payed to them, they should pay dividends to clean up any screw up their company makes. Not as difficult as it would seem. Yes people would be less likely to invest in a company if they know that by doing so they will be held responsible to pay out for it's screw ups, but then only the best companies will be in operation. Personal accountability. The antidote to all our social ills. Each person should be accountable for their participation in an event, rewarded for its success, and accept responsibility for its failure. No more "I was just following orders" or "hey I didn't know they were going to do that" or "I just own stock, i don't run the operation".
Exactly! Unfortunately the corporatist system we live under takes away liability from the corporations, management and investors. If corporate charters did away with limited liability it would do as you say, bring the cream to the top. I imagine there would be insurance that could be purchased to cover liability to the investors and I would not object to the government providing it (for a fee) as opposed to just giving blanket protection as they do now.
Pleaser,
I would not call what we have as deregulation, thousands of pages of laws are still regulations. They just benefit certain corporations over others currently but it is still regulation. An even playing field where all corporations were equally liable would solve a lot more problems then regulations do.
WILDONEZ2004, I agree with your opinion.
Mr. C, it's only a reg if someone is enforcing it. I'm ok with what you say about corporatist systems; so when's it going to change?
Here is another sad bit of information to further infuriate our idealist sensibilities
Mr. C, it's only a reg if someone is enforcing it. I'm ok with what you say about corporatist systems; so when's it going to change?
Here is another sad bit of information to further infuriate our idealist sensibilities
If you dont think this will cost BP you are mistaken, I see no future for that company. You all want someone to hang, well dont worry all your dreams will come true.
But let me ask this, where are they? where are the enviromentalists? Where is Al Gore and the hollywood elite? If anyone else were in office they would all over this. The people of the south are being treated like second class citizens, it is a fucking shame. Believe me if this was in the north east at martha's vinyard they would be all over this mess. The gulf coast is and will continue to be a ghost area. 2.4 million jobs are in the balance.
But let me ask this, where are they? where are the enviromentalists? Where is Al Gore and the hollywood elite? If anyone else were in office they would all over this. The people of the south are being treated like second class citizens, it is a fucking shame. Believe me if this was in the north east at martha's vinyard they would be all over this mess. The gulf coast is and will continue to be a ghost area. 2.4 million jobs are in the balance.
Govenment regulations...BP wanted to drill 9 years ago Approx 12 miles from the site in question. Here's why. At the other site it was 600 ft. where the site is today is over 5000 ft where man cant dive, making caping extremely diffacult. Does this excuse the mess no, am I defending BP No, but the same government trying to protect us actually helped create the mess. Had this site been 12 miles north and had the permit been issued we most certainly would have all attended the funerals of those killed in the explosion instead of witnessing the death of the North American southern coast.