It looks like a VAT is on the drawing board, what are your thoughts about adding a VAT on top of an income tax?
More specifics?
A VAT is basically like a sales tax at every level of the economic ladder. So you make the plastic you pay tax, they guys who buys your plastic pays tax on it, the people who use the plastic to package a product pay taxes, the wholesaler pays a tax and the retailer pays a tax from them. The true cost of the tax gets passed on to the consumer. They are talking about a 10% or higher VAT.
Mr. C
Mr. C
INDEPENDENCE-GUY wrote:
It's a great idea... if your objective is to finish of what little is left of U.S. manufacturing. I'm sure China and the rest of the third world will love it. Though they will largely melt away when our sorry economy finally gives up the ghost.
So true but you best get used to the idea, they are al ready flying the trial baloons.
Mr.C
INDEPENDENCE-GUY wrote:
It's way too late to think about this mess really "recovering" to any semblance of the way things used to be. I mean, really, that's false hope. It's like holding onto the Titanic and thinking that, just because the bow rose up out of the water for a moment, that the whole thing isn't going to sink.
I agree but that doesn't mean they arn't going to suck out as much benefit for themselves on the way down.
Mr. C
INDEPENDENCE-GUY wrote:
It's way too late to think about this mess really "recovering" to any semblance of the way things used to be. I mean, really, that's false hope. It's like holding onto the Titanic and thinking that, just because the bow rose up out of the water for a moment, that the whole thing isn't going to sink.
First "the way things used to be" i.e. pre 2006 was an illusion. Credit chasing credit, debt chasing debt, inflating monetary values and egos. Great for bankers, lawyers, and gamblers. Not so great for working class, especially wage earners, as they were compelled to sell their future labor just to meet the basic demands of today. Once the credit/debt reached a critical mass, then came the collapse and contraction that most economists (not the simpering sycophants in D.C.) knew would happen. When wages do not keep pace with the increase in costs of basic goods and services, then that increased cost is supported by debt, which must either be repaid or defaulted upon. In the case of the former an increase wages must out pace any further increase on the price of goods and services or an increase of debt must be allowed, but this will create a false sense of stability as eventually the wage earner will have to choose between paying debt or purchasing basic necessities (food, clothing, shelter). At that point the only option left is to default on the debt, causing a void and exposing the gap between the price of goods and the value of the goods.
As to the subject at hand VAT. VAT is the only "fair" tax as it is paid by the consumer, and those who consume more, pay more. If it were to be enacted, first to make a "level playing field", tariffs would need to be imposed upon foreign goods and services, a task made difficult by our trade agreements, and an action that would be both domestically and internationally unpopular. Without the "protectionist" tariffs, domestic firms will be unable to compete with imported goods and services at least in price. One way domestic firms could justify the higher price is to provide better value (more durable, better quality) as we have seen with the off-shore outsourcing of customer support positions and the backlash over the last two decades. So truly we see the policy choice that must be made; either we do not tax goods used in production, or we place tariffs upon imported goods to equal the added burden placed upon domestic producers. Either way the consumers will have higher prices to pay and our economy will suffer.
Excuse me if I sound a little bit like Ross Perot when I say "hold on a minute now" . I appreciate that such an intellectual and relevant discussion such as taxes and the "pending defaulting on our national debt" is taking place in the forums room, I can't just read and not comment on it myself.
I think we can all agree no one likes paying taxes and that everyone feels a "change" has occurred in our national wealth and to our individual standard of living in recent years.I know I certainly feel economically "weaker" in our household and in our community and everyone but the federal government has had to "tighten our belt".
On the subject of the VAT let me point out for clarification and to slightly modify the explaination given by CLIFFNOTES ,the proposed value added tax is only collected on the marginal increase in value at each level along the manufacturing and sales chain until the product reaches the consumer. This means that the wholesaler nor the retailer must pay the value added tax since they "added no value" to the product .
So in his example of "Plastic", when the chemical company purchases the products that will be mixed together to make plastic end product they would buy the product and pay the cost for the product plus pay to the vendor an additional amount (lets say the 10%) for the VAT. So here's the first level of tax . Let's use a cost of $1.00 per pound of plastic cubed raw material. So the mom and pop pay $1.10 per pound.
Thus the cost to the manufacturer went up by the fictitious cost of tax, by 10%. When the chemical company sells it's finished product to the mom and pop shop they would collect tax at the point of sale unless exempt.
The mom & Pop , who then use the plastic in making (hell this is a swinger site, lets use adult toys as the product) molded handles for the "Mega Orgasm Buster 2012" ,they add value to the product and buy plastic and copper and latex and using their proprietary family secret are able to deliver a product that will revolutionize America's bedroom .
Additionally they shrink wrap their product for packaging and sell their product for $10.00 taking a credit for the value added taxes paid on purchase of the raw materials resulting in the mom and pop paying only for the additional value added that they produced using plastic.
The end consumer pays the VAT and gets a deduction on the federal tax return for taxes paid. Those that pay no income tax get no deduction but have contributed for the cost of living in America.
Those that pay income taxes are allowed to reduce the total taxes owed by deducting some of what was amount already paid during the year when they consumed or purchased products or services.
Net gain is dependant onbly on the whats and who's that are included and excluded and to what percent that they are able to bleed out of us at first to get us ammuned to the idea.
Then progressively , like the income tax , which started in 1914 as a 2% war tax (only paid by 5% of the population) and is now been tweeked and stretched to our "voluntary tax" equal to 15.35%payroll tax on almost all wages paid plus up to 39.6% income tax plus if your lucky enought to pay the "alternative minimum tax" eventually causing you to die and cost your heirs up to 55% for estate taxes on anything they failed to bleed from you earlier.
Kid's the VAT or some form of a new or revised TAX IS COMING. Does it mean we as a nation are doomed to default on our national debt. I doubt it.Will there still be an underground layer of noncompliance with any taxation? I think so. Will the cost of buying goods and services rise? YES. But if the value of our dollar keeps shrinking and costs of goods keep rising and outpacing the rise in earnings, everyone's standard of living will fall.
Every one has heard the expression "a wise man once told me" ..... And it usually proved to be true about what ever the situation you were facing.
Maybe the "rich old man from Texas" Ross Perot made more sense than we gave him credit for.
Remember the charts and graphs? He was even so bold as to run for President as an independant , trying once and for all to break our federal governments two party, lobbyist funded, special interest supported system.
I sure wish some one would run for office that had the GUTTS and INTEGRITY to not accept the same old ways of doing business in Washington and to be open and honest to the American public and use the POWER of the office for the Good of the People rather than the good of their legacy.
We were told by Perot almost two decades ago, this economic collapse was going to be the result "UNLESS" our leaders stopped borrowing from our grandchildrens generation and reduced the size of government and balanced the budget. Now I am no Ross Perot fan but I have to laugh in retrospect how instead of fixing our broken government , we got Monica Lewenski and the cum shot stained Presidential seal covered Blue dress instead. "I did not have SEX in the White House".
No intent on offending any members from Arkansas but even this redneck from Florida knows Hillary ain't putting out any more and Slick Willy's cum shot get embedded on Monica's blue dress playing Washington's version of "I promise I won't cum in your mouth" but hey , it's not like they were havin sex . (You know , bible belt missionary style sex that is)
Unless "we the people" demand that the elected officials (ie.Crooks who vote in washington) drastically change they way they do business, we the people will continue to pay for it with our standard of living.
As the old saying goes, there are only two certainties in life: death and taxes. While we have yet to find a way to successfully avoid either I make my living consulting on LEGAL ways to minimize what you pay and maximize what you earn and keep.
Those who know me will attest, I didn't get a PhD in world economic's ,I'm not part of the Rothschild's family and I damn sure do not have any interest in ever running for a political office.I'm just Florida's version of Joe the plumber. If enough of us little folks decide to stomp our feet , maybe the one's in the business of passing law might start paying attention. It's going to come to it,I damn sure don't want America to become the next Greece.
Remember that prior to 1914 there was no Federal or state income taxes paid by "we the people". This country was founded in 1776 by revolutionists who fled England (and the Rothschild family)and later the war of 1812 over the mandate of paying taxes and fought to their death to never allow the formation of a personal income tax thus necessitating the formation of a central bank in this country.
History has shown that over time, Great Nation's fail and if we don't learn from history , history will repeat itself. I am an American,I pay taxes (but I hate it)but I'd prefer living here than in any other place on God's Earth.
I'd also like to see my tax dollars used to better the nation and with responsibility and accountability. There are other ways to raise net revenues other than the VAT but to offset the progressive nature of the current income tax sysytem and to actually raise revenues the option being considered needs to be more of a regressive tax.
Those who's who are employed to offer solutions (not governmental employees but contracted consultants)suggest a European styled VAT to target taxation on the estimated 12.9 trillion dollar annual gross domestic product in the United States.
A Progressive tax meaning a tax (like a national sales) that takes a larger percentage from low-income people than from high-income people. Our current personal income tax system doesn't capture almost 50% of all US citizens who pay no personal income tax and usually receive governmental assistance. A regressive tax is generally a tax that is applied uniformly like our income tax system a tax and is also a tax that takes a larger percentage from the income of high-income people than it does from low-income people. And a flat tax is a system that taxes everyone at the same rate, regardless of their income bracket.)
For the value that would add to our country , I think I could sleep better on April 15th each year.
Instead of imposing a VAT , let's all send our politicians mail every day containing other ways to accomplish the job with out starting the fuse to the future destruction of what America. I don't want to pay anymore , infact I feel America should go on a diet and trim up what America feels a need to provide.
I swear I am not under the effects of drugs, alcohol or lack of sex when i offer for your review this list of alternatives to the VAT.
We could just open the freekin borders and charge an admission fee. Hell if Disney get's $78 per day and trust me , if you've been there , it's full of imegrants and tourists, charge all politicians,illegal imegrants (notice how I combined those two groups together?)all foreigners a daily admission fee to be in the usa. When we lock up illegals, bill their family for their cost of detention and a daily "America fee".
Let every one who wants to work in america and perform our lower level jobs a chance to work but lets Charge them each a daily fee. It might provide just as much deterrant to foreign terrorists as does our crack staff of $8.50 per hour Transportation Safety Administration employees have by checking grandma's shoes at the nations airports. I say, don't pass laws just for the sake of getting recognition by naming a law after yourself.
I'm all about paying my fair share but when the government starts taxing me everytime I shave my genetalia, I'm moving overseas.
If America cut out the kick back's to those elected officials,cut 50% of all of the waste and redundancy or red tape in government, eliminate the illegal lobbying, close loop holes for the special interests, and for GOD and my sake Minimize the size of government. A few other idea's to ,cut off entitlements without community service,Stop providing free international military & defense to the world,Eliminate the need for incarceration except in matters of violence acts and , (this might offend some native American members but 234 years of a free ride is enough) removal of exemptions for indian owned businesses, reservations and casino's .
America needs to step up to the plate and let "our" opinions be known this next election and let them be heard starting now. Do we want our children to pay for the actions that are about to be set in place in Washington. I'll bet most of us have very little interest in the what , where's and how's our federal government is ran, but some body needs to start watching the fox because he's selling hen's out the back side of the perverbial henhouse.
When the new health care law was passed the size of the federal government added 159 new governmental agencies and who is going to pay for those salaries, regulators and immense overhead?
Certainly not the Chineese or the Rothschild's family but they will continue to loan the Federal government money for the next 6 years until they estimate that it will begin receiving revenues . Most people believe that our government needs to tax us ,the citizens, to pay for all the entitlements, like social security and medicare for the elderly,national infrastructure and salaries for your fine citizen representitives in Washington.
When the truth be known over 45% of the total amount collected each year from US individual personal income taxes goes just towards interest on our 13 trillion dollar national debt.
I learned a long time ago to get to the root of an issue, FOLLOW THE MONEY.
Our taxes we pay each year to the US Treasury is sent oversea's to the "City of London", a soverign piece of real estate with it's own laws, defense forse and military from the rest of either London, or the United Kingdom itself to the "worlds most elite banking and economic center in the world" to the Bank of England. From there it is deposited with the Bank for International Settlement. So follow this again your payment on April 15th goes direct from our Federal Reserve Bank after being collected by the individuals employed by (pocket commission carrying agents ) of the Internal Revenue Service to pay interest on a loan backed by the full faith and trust of the US Government not gold. Most American's don't know this but all these Federal banks and loan collectors are not even owned by the US government. Did you read that correctly?
Yes the federal Reserve Bank is privately owned by none other than the decendants of the Rich and Powerful Rothschild's family. They also own 165 other nations federal reserve banks and they account for more of our nations national debt than China, Saudi Arabia and the other oil rich countries that the media portrays as "Foreign interests" combined. They print out our currencies, control the inflation, deflation, cause recessions and charge our US government interest for the amount of dollars they print and sell to foreign investors or print as bonds and hold (unsecurred with out monitizing with gold reserves like in the good old days)OK enough of that . Thats an area for a whole new topic later.
If you don't think we should let the Chineese and the Rothschild's reposess the White house,the capital building , hell let's give them the whole District of Columbia for all I care to pay down on the national debt. But let's save the National parks,our military and our veterans , the interstate highway and transportation system and our electrical power and internet grids for our grandkids.
If you've read this far , please get up off our collective asses and do something today. Not tomorrow
or next week.
If you believe that we the people have been screwed enough, do something .If you want more taxes and less ability to earn and keep a decent days pay for your efforts sit back , bend over and don't complain if you get some cum on your little blue dress.
I think we can all agree no one likes paying taxes and that everyone feels a "change" has occurred in our national wealth and to our individual standard of living in recent years.I know I certainly feel economically "weaker" in our household and in our community and everyone but the federal government has had to "tighten our belt".
On the subject of the VAT let me point out for clarification and to slightly modify the explaination given by CLIFFNOTES ,the proposed value added tax is only collected on the marginal increase in value at each level along the manufacturing and sales chain until the product reaches the consumer. This means that the wholesaler nor the retailer must pay the value added tax since they "added no value" to the product .
So in his example of "Plastic", when the chemical company purchases the products that will be mixed together to make plastic end product they would buy the product and pay the cost for the product plus pay to the vendor an additional amount (lets say the 10%) for the VAT. So here's the first level of tax . Let's use a cost of $1.00 per pound of plastic cubed raw material. So the mom and pop pay $1.10 per pound.
Thus the cost to the manufacturer went up by the fictitious cost of tax, by 10%. When the chemical company sells it's finished product to the mom and pop shop they would collect tax at the point of sale unless exempt.
The mom & Pop , who then use the plastic in making (hell this is a swinger site, lets use adult toys as the product) molded handles for the "Mega Orgasm Buster 2012" ,they add value to the product and buy plastic and copper and latex and using their proprietary family secret are able to deliver a product that will revolutionize America's bedroom .
Additionally they shrink wrap their product for packaging and sell their product for $10.00 taking a credit for the value added taxes paid on purchase of the raw materials resulting in the mom and pop paying only for the additional value added that they produced using plastic.
The end consumer pays the VAT and gets a deduction on the federal tax return for taxes paid. Those that pay no income tax get no deduction but have contributed for the cost of living in America.
Those that pay income taxes are allowed to reduce the total taxes owed by deducting some of what was amount already paid during the year when they consumed or purchased products or services.
Net gain is dependant onbly on the whats and who's that are included and excluded and to what percent that they are able to bleed out of us at first to get us ammuned to the idea.
Then progressively , like the income tax , which started in 1914 as a 2% war tax (only paid by 5% of the population) and is now been tweeked and stretched to our "voluntary tax" equal to 15.35%payroll tax on almost all wages paid plus up to 39.6% income tax plus if your lucky enought to pay the "alternative minimum tax" eventually causing you to die and cost your heirs up to 55% for estate taxes on anything they failed to bleed from you earlier.
Kid's the VAT or some form of a new or revised TAX IS COMING. Does it mean we as a nation are doomed to default on our national debt. I doubt it.Will there still be an underground layer of noncompliance with any taxation? I think so. Will the cost of buying goods and services rise? YES. But if the value of our dollar keeps shrinking and costs of goods keep rising and outpacing the rise in earnings, everyone's standard of living will fall.
Every one has heard the expression "a wise man once told me" ..... And it usually proved to be true about what ever the situation you were facing.
Maybe the "rich old man from Texas" Ross Perot made more sense than we gave him credit for.
Remember the charts and graphs? He was even so bold as to run for President as an independant , trying once and for all to break our federal governments two party, lobbyist funded, special interest supported system.
I sure wish some one would run for office that had the GUTTS and INTEGRITY to not accept the same old ways of doing business in Washington and to be open and honest to the American public and use the POWER of the office for the Good of the People rather than the good of their legacy.
We were told by Perot almost two decades ago, this economic collapse was going to be the result "UNLESS" our leaders stopped borrowing from our grandchildrens generation and reduced the size of government and balanced the budget. Now I am no Ross Perot fan but I have to laugh in retrospect how instead of fixing our broken government , we got Monica Lewenski and the cum shot stained Presidential seal covered Blue dress instead. "I did not have SEX in the White House".
No intent on offending any members from Arkansas but even this redneck from Florida knows Hillary ain't putting out any more and Slick Willy's cum shot get embedded on Monica's blue dress playing Washington's version of "I promise I won't cum in your mouth" but hey , it's not like they were havin sex . (You know , bible belt missionary style sex that is)
Unless "we the people" demand that the elected officials (ie.Crooks who vote in washington) drastically change they way they do business, we the people will continue to pay for it with our standard of living.
As the old saying goes, there are only two certainties in life: death and taxes. While we have yet to find a way to successfully avoid either I make my living consulting on LEGAL ways to minimize what you pay and maximize what you earn and keep.
Those who know me will attest, I didn't get a PhD in world economic's ,I'm not part of the Rothschild's family and I damn sure do not have any interest in ever running for a political office.I'm just Florida's version of Joe the plumber. If enough of us little folks decide to stomp our feet , maybe the one's in the business of passing law might start paying attention. It's going to come to it,I damn sure don't want America to become the next Greece.
Remember that prior to 1914 there was no Federal or state income taxes paid by "we the people". This country was founded in 1776 by revolutionists who fled England (and the Rothschild family)and later the war of 1812 over the mandate of paying taxes and fought to their death to never allow the formation of a personal income tax thus necessitating the formation of a central bank in this country.
History has shown that over time, Great Nation's fail and if we don't learn from history , history will repeat itself. I am an American,I pay taxes (but I hate it)but I'd prefer living here than in any other place on God's Earth.
I'd also like to see my tax dollars used to better the nation and with responsibility and accountability. There are other ways to raise net revenues other than the VAT but to offset the progressive nature of the current income tax sysytem and to actually raise revenues the option being considered needs to be more of a regressive tax.
Those who's who are employed to offer solutions (not governmental employees but contracted consultants)suggest a European styled VAT to target taxation on the estimated 12.9 trillion dollar annual gross domestic product in the United States.
A Progressive tax meaning a tax (like a national sales) that takes a larger percentage from low-income people than from high-income people. Our current personal income tax system doesn't capture almost 50% of all US citizens who pay no personal income tax and usually receive governmental assistance. A regressive tax is generally a tax that is applied uniformly like our income tax system a tax and is also a tax that takes a larger percentage from the income of high-income people than it does from low-income people. And a flat tax is a system that taxes everyone at the same rate, regardless of their income bracket.)
For the value that would add to our country , I think I could sleep better on April 15th each year.
Instead of imposing a VAT , let's all send our politicians mail every day containing other ways to accomplish the job with out starting the fuse to the future destruction of what America. I don't want to pay anymore , infact I feel America should go on a diet and trim up what America feels a need to provide.
I swear I am not under the effects of drugs, alcohol or lack of sex when i offer for your review this list of alternatives to the VAT.
We could just open the freekin borders and charge an admission fee. Hell if Disney get's $78 per day and trust me , if you've been there , it's full of imegrants and tourists, charge all politicians,illegal imegrants (notice how I combined those two groups together?)all foreigners a daily admission fee to be in the usa. When we lock up illegals, bill their family for their cost of detention and a daily "America fee".
Let every one who wants to work in america and perform our lower level jobs a chance to work but lets Charge them each a daily fee. It might provide just as much deterrant to foreign terrorists as does our crack staff of $8.50 per hour Transportation Safety Administration employees have by checking grandma's shoes at the nations airports. I say, don't pass laws just for the sake of getting recognition by naming a law after yourself.
I'm all about paying my fair share but when the government starts taxing me everytime I shave my genetalia, I'm moving overseas.
If America cut out the kick back's to those elected officials,cut 50% of all of the waste and redundancy or red tape in government, eliminate the illegal lobbying, close loop holes for the special interests, and for GOD and my sake Minimize the size of government. A few other idea's to ,cut off entitlements without community service,Stop providing free international military & defense to the world,Eliminate the need for incarceration except in matters of violence acts and , (this might offend some native American members but 234 years of a free ride is enough) removal of exemptions for indian owned businesses, reservations and casino's .
America needs to step up to the plate and let "our" opinions be known this next election and let them be heard starting now. Do we want our children to pay for the actions that are about to be set in place in Washington. I'll bet most of us have very little interest in the what , where's and how's our federal government is ran, but some body needs to start watching the fox because he's selling hen's out the back side of the perverbial henhouse.
When the new health care law was passed the size of the federal government added 159 new governmental agencies and who is going to pay for those salaries, regulators and immense overhead?
Certainly not the Chineese or the Rothschild's family but they will continue to loan the Federal government money for the next 6 years until they estimate that it will begin receiving revenues . Most people believe that our government needs to tax us ,the citizens, to pay for all the entitlements, like social security and medicare for the elderly,national infrastructure and salaries for your fine citizen representitives in Washington.
When the truth be known over 45% of the total amount collected each year from US individual personal income taxes goes just towards interest on our 13 trillion dollar national debt.
I learned a long time ago to get to the root of an issue, FOLLOW THE MONEY.
Our taxes we pay each year to the US Treasury is sent oversea's to the "City of London", a soverign piece of real estate with it's own laws, defense forse and military from the rest of either London, or the United Kingdom itself to the "worlds most elite banking and economic center in the world" to the Bank of England. From there it is deposited with the Bank for International Settlement. So follow this again your payment on April 15th goes direct from our Federal Reserve Bank after being collected by the individuals employed by (pocket commission carrying agents ) of the Internal Revenue Service to pay interest on a loan backed by the full faith and trust of the US Government not gold. Most American's don't know this but all these Federal banks and loan collectors are not even owned by the US government. Did you read that correctly?
Yes the federal Reserve Bank is privately owned by none other than the decendants of the Rich and Powerful Rothschild's family. They also own 165 other nations federal reserve banks and they account for more of our nations national debt than China, Saudi Arabia and the other oil rich countries that the media portrays as "Foreign interests" combined. They print out our currencies, control the inflation, deflation, cause recessions and charge our US government interest for the amount of dollars they print and sell to foreign investors or print as bonds and hold (unsecurred with out monitizing with gold reserves like in the good old days)OK enough of that . Thats an area for a whole new topic later.
If you don't think we should let the Chineese and the Rothschild's reposess the White house,the capital building , hell let's give them the whole District of Columbia for all I care to pay down on the national debt. But let's save the National parks,our military and our veterans , the interstate highway and transportation system and our electrical power and internet grids for our grandkids.
If you've read this far , please get up off our collective asses and do something today. Not tomorrow
or next week.
If you believe that we the people have been screwed enough, do something .If you want more taxes and less ability to earn and keep a decent days pay for your efforts sit back , bend over and don't complain if you get some cum on your little blue dress.
VAT Tax would be ok by its self, eliminate the IRS and I am all for it.
To see what VAT taxes do, look no further than Canada or Europe, they all pay 3-4 times our prices for goods.
The VAT tax is hidden in the cost of goods, the profit margins do not change for the companies, you and I will pay it, period.
The VAT tax is hidden in the cost of goods, the profit margins do not change for the companies, you and I will pay it, period.
A single layer VAT is a good idea, finished goods purchased for resale should be taxed. Far too many companies are using their tax exempt status for purchasing resale items to purchase all of their office supplies and equipment.
Although I would much rather simply see the tax exempt status removed and have it as a return option for business taxes. Throw in a nice no exemption flat tax income tax for individuals and we could cut the IRS down by about two thirds, lower individual taxes, and increase revenues.
Although I would much rather simply see the tax exempt status removed and have it as a return option for business taxes. Throw in a nice no exemption flat tax income tax for individuals and we could cut the IRS down by about two thirds, lower individual taxes, and increase revenues.
Pelosi and Gingrich's baby Trust me as a manufacturer and importer. YOU will pay more at the register for any tax.
@fantasyfaces
I can pull a 20 dollar bill out of my pocket and set it on fire. Call it entertainment but I am still out 20 bucks with your deduction or reduction to the ridiculous.
I can pull a 20 dollar bill out of my pocket and set it on fire. Call it entertainment but I am still out 20 bucks with your deduction or reduction to the ridiculous.