So one of my new friends asked me what I gave up for lent and I chuckled and said "monogamy!". How do you balance in your brain what you want to do (choosing this lifestyle) and what you have been taught as right your whole life (monogamy and religious issues)?
I agree with RawCherries. Both Mark & I grew up in households where religion was forced upon us and we didn't believe it. We both believe in having morals and being good people, but neither of us believe in organized religion nor do we think that any higher power that may exist really has a problem with us drinking and/or having sex. Mark left the church when he was 14. Kitty grew up in a household where that wasn't possible and had bad experiences when she told people she didn't want to be mormon anymore, so she left the church when she moved out at 18. So neither of us have issues with religion and sex clashing. We can see how people that really do truly believe in whatever religion and social structures might have a conflict of interest with swinging. We hope they can find a good middle ground and do what makes them happy. That how we figure it. We'll respect other's religious views and choices on how to handle being a swinger at the same time as long as our views are respected as well. Anywho, hope that wasn't too much of a ramble.
I agree with raw cherries and hello kitty. I don't think balance is possible here. If you believe what you have been taught and what you have been taught condemns swinging, then you must choose. Either the religion is right like it says it is, and you will be sinning when swinging, or you need a new belief system. Organized Religion won't bend to you. There is not an easy answer to this question, but I wish you luck in your search for your answers.
There are also others out there that believe there is a God, but don't choose to go to church. I (the female) is involved in other things that the church would really look down on. So of course it made my choice easy, church or the life I live now. Being comfortable is a important part of choosing which way to go. I enjoy what I do, and wouldn't change that for anything. (If you are wondering what that is please feel free to e-mail us)
I (the male) was very religious. Also very logical. For the longest time I was able to use both to help me make sense of the world around me. Experience has shown me that my previous belief in the nature and disposition of God was flawed. Personally I believe in doing no harm to any one, in doing good to as many as I can, and am willing to explore many different views on God(s)(ess)(esses)(?). I hold no ill feelings towards any including and especially my parents who believe different than I. I hold everyone's beliefs in high respect . These are good things that religion taught me. As for the social aspect, well if they really believe what they believe they will love you and may attempt to discourage you from engaging in "immoral" behaviors, but should be able to accept that that is who you are, even if they don't want to associate with you. There are many religions out there that believe that sex is sacred and should be shared. There are also many religions in which sex is not even considered except in the context of your wider dealings with other beings. You need to decide what is right for you, and who you are, not what someone says is right, not what someone says you should be. Only then can you be a truly moral actor, otherwise you are simply the vassal of someone else and are like a robot, "just following orders." Religion is deeply personal, and as such should be left up to the individual. Just some of my rambling opinions....
I don't have a problem between my religion and swinging/sex. Personally, I do believe in God, but I don't follow organized religion. Because I follow what I think the Bible says people should do, "love thy neighbor," "feed the hungry/clothe the naked, etc," .....you know, basically, the Golden Rule, I don't see a problem with my faith and my sexual proclivities. And anyway, like I always say, A) the Bible says that God said "be fruitful and multiply," and B) if God didn't want people to have sex, it wouldn't be fun, now would it? Most of the rest of the animal kingdom only has sex when it's time to reproduce. Only humans, chimps, and dolphins (that we know of) that have sex JUST for fun. Clearly, there's a reason for this; even before advanced birth control like we have now, sex wasn't something that people *really* didn't do until they were married. Come, now.
A fascinating topic, indeed, and some thoughtful responses. The long and the short of it is that religion was created by humans to manipulate sexuality among social groups (determine appropriate partners to perpetuate specific gene pools over others). There are and always have been different religious attitudes towards sex, but ultimately it is about control. The "morals" that envelop society today are the last wisps of 18th and 19th century Victorianism that have little to do with how humans have viewed sexuality over our 3 million year sojourn on this planet. When you look at the whole of human history, we are fundamentally mammals with animal instincts, for good and bad. Because of our brains, we may choose to be monogamous (or not), but monogamy is something contrary to our very being. Early in the development of our species, it was advantageous not to be monogamous. Woman with multiple sex partners could create confusion among the males as to whether the resulting offspring was theirs (confused paternity), and hence the female would have multiple males to help care for the offspring (or to at least ensure the offspring would not be killed). It was advantageous to men to be promiscuous because multiple partners means multiple births, and a greater chance at least one offspring will survive (and hence the gene pool will survive). It worked well in hunter-gatherer societies, and still does in many "undeveloped" places today. When you come to accept that religion is make believe and God is a human construct, then you can focus your energies on being good in every respect without fear of damnation or worry of condemnation. Hell is the denial of who we are as humans. Sorry for rambling. This is the short version, too.
Enlightened - Good post! I tend to agree with most of your assessment. However, I believe your opening statement to be inaccurate speculation ("... religion was created by humans to manipulate sexuality among social groups ...).
Evidence of 'religion', of some sort, can be found among our most primitive ancestors - long before social engineering was a concept.
I would pose that religion came about to calm fears of the unknown, and to provide explanation for that which was not understood (and likely hope for the post-life). I'm guessing sex didn't enter into religious edicts until after the "collection plate" was invented!
As to the original post, the theme of respondents so far seems to be - 'My religion didn't allow for me to do what I wanted to do, so I ditched the religion'. Easy enough. There is a boatload of religious variety out there. Pick one that CONFORMS to your belief system. If you can't find one, start your own - it's done all the time.
In today's instant-gratification, self-serving world it can be very difficult for people to embrace a concept that places demands on our wishes/desires.
(Wildonez - I think you have a great attitude!)
D
Evidence of 'religion', of some sort, can be found among our most primitive ancestors - long before social engineering was a concept.
I would pose that religion came about to calm fears of the unknown, and to provide explanation for that which was not understood (and likely hope for the post-life). I'm guessing sex didn't enter into religious edicts until after the "collection plate" was invented!
As to the original post, the theme of respondents so far seems to be - 'My religion didn't allow for me to do what I wanted to do, so I ditched the religion'. Easy enough. There is a boatload of religious variety out there. Pick one that CONFORMS to your belief system. If you can't find one, start your own - it's done all the time.
In today's instant-gratification, self-serving world it can be very difficult for people to embrace a concept that places demands on our wishes/desires.
(Wildonez - I think you have a great attitude!)
D
CHRKE2: Thank you. And you are correct that religion has existed at least as long as society, and I would posit since we attained sapience, as religion has to deal with the very questions that a sapient being can ask. Who am I? What do I want? Why am I here? The ability to ask these questions is what we can define as sapience, to comprehend one's existence. As for religion being used as a tool for social engineering, that has been done ever since people felt the need to control another's actions. It continues with the modern eco-centric culture, as the definition of a good person is one who has as small an impact on the world as possible. Again these are very personal questions, with equally personal answers. Who am I? What do I want? Why am I here?
I am grateful for the thoughtfullness of everyone that has responded. I do beleive in God and believe that Jesus walked the Earth and died on the cross for our sins. I do not beleive that there is anywhere in the bible that says he never married...hence the questions that arise regarding Mary Magdeline possibly being his wife/girlfriend/etc.
I beleive that if you are honest about who you are and live life in an honest and charitable way, that you are doing good, whether or not you choose an organized religion or are more spiritually centered is up to the individual. As long as one is not hypocritical and judgemental of others choices, you are also choosing the honest way of life.
I am very spiritual and grateful the we have the opportunity as mortals to make our choices and that we are personally responsible for our sins and errors, but that He died on the cross for the specific reason that God KNEW it was an impossible task for us to be perfect. He did make us in his own image, so I would agree that he is a sexual being, as well. Whether not he meant for us to have multiple partners I think is covered in the commandment that we cleave only to each other.
That said, when a person or couple chooses "the Lifestyle" or to be otherwise sexually open outside of marraige, may very well be a sin. If you feel guilty, there is probably something you have chosen that is outside of your inner beleif system and maybe you shuuld not be doing it. If you feel fine about your choice of lifestyle and are honest with yourself and your dealings with others, maybe it is part of your individual sexual make up and it is not sinning. I'm sure it could be debated from all sides.
When I say being honest, I don't mean shouting it out to the world that you are more sexually experimental, but in the general way you live your life. Your sexual choices are personal and intimate and there is no reason to tell anyone that you do not want to, anything about your lifestyle. Just as those who chose monogamy don't necissarily share with everyone that, "Hey, my spouse and I experimented with bondage last night and had a blast!". LOL
Now this is rambling, so thank you for your patience if you have read this entire post. XOXO
I beleive that if you are honest about who you are and live life in an honest and charitable way, that you are doing good, whether or not you choose an organized religion or are more spiritually centered is up to the individual. As long as one is not hypocritical and judgemental of others choices, you are also choosing the honest way of life.
I am very spiritual and grateful the we have the opportunity as mortals to make our choices and that we are personally responsible for our sins and errors, but that He died on the cross for the specific reason that God KNEW it was an impossible task for us to be perfect. He did make us in his own image, so I would agree that he is a sexual being, as well. Whether not he meant for us to have multiple partners I think is covered in the commandment that we cleave only to each other.
That said, when a person or couple chooses "the Lifestyle" or to be otherwise sexually open outside of marraige, may very well be a sin. If you feel guilty, there is probably something you have chosen that is outside of your inner beleif system and maybe you shuuld not be doing it. If you feel fine about your choice of lifestyle and are honest with yourself and your dealings with others, maybe it is part of your individual sexual make up and it is not sinning. I'm sure it could be debated from all sides.
When I say being honest, I don't mean shouting it out to the world that you are more sexually experimental, but in the general way you live your life. Your sexual choices are personal and intimate and there is no reason to tell anyone that you do not want to, anything about your lifestyle. Just as those who chose monogamy don't necissarily share with everyone that, "Hey, my spouse and I experimented with bondage last night and had a blast!". LOL
Now this is rambling, so thank you for your patience if you have read this entire post. XOXO
Both of us were raised in religious households and as we have moved through life and expereinced other cultures we realized life is to short to encumber any of it to a restrictive set of rules that most religons insist on. With that said we just do not see how anyone can participate in this lifestyle and follow the rules of any Western religon without violating that religons core rules. Some Eastern religons are more liberal toward sexuality and less prohibitative in nature and possibly lend themsleves to acceptance of this lifestyle. In the end it is up to each individual and thier set of beliefs, if you can justify your actions and live with your decisions then good for you. Our experience has taught us that if we meet someone and religion is a focal point in thier life it would be best for us to move on. Religion can bring huge drama and we are not into that what so ever.
along time ago i the male half was sitting in jail as i often did and i picked of a piece of a bible that was laying there like a hundred pages or so, i preceeded to read it and the spirit came apon me so strong that i began to weep, i really tried to hide it as i was in charge of that cell i controlled what channel the tv was on who got to use tiolet paper and so on and so forth, well at that very momment i knew that what was in that book was the truth, and it immediatly gave me the strength to stop shooting up, i was an out of control iv drug user and that addiction left me right then and there. shortly there after i was absolutly sure that i existed before this time in a celestral relm and that i could return to that realm if i passed certain test mostly that of which pertained to how i treated/loved other people and very little to do with what i did to myself, i believe that when i was in this realm i was as a god and i partook of fleshly desires, pretty much what iam doing now except my body is not glorified.
God created sex to be injoyed, religion is the one that perverted it to have control and power over the people. Didn't our Lord Christ say it was finished on the cross, all my sins as a child of God was taken care of right then and their.
Yes my wife and I are Christians and we know and love our Lord Christ but that has nothing to do with us loveing each other and our sex life, swinging is just part of our marriage bed nothing more. God created sex just as he turned water into wine -- AT A PARTY-- . Jesus was a cool dude and ment for life to be happy not doom and gloom and act like munks trying to show everyone how holy we are.
Yes my wife and I are Christians and we know and love our Lord Christ but that has nothing to do with us loveing each other and our sex life, swinging is just part of our marriage bed nothing more. God created sex just as he turned water into wine -- AT A PARTY-- . Jesus was a cool dude and ment for life to be happy not doom and gloom and act like munks trying to show everyone how holy we are.
This has always been a tough controversy. Religion, swinging. I am agnostic and my GF was LDS. Her family is hardcore LDS still and pushed the faith on their daughter (my GF) and her kids even. They preach that they want their whole family in the religion cuz they need to know "right from wrong". I asked the kids (8 & 6 yrs old) what they learn in church.. seems to me all they learn about is how great their "savior" is, how he loves us, and we can look to him, and family is a "unit".. they dont seem to learn anythign about right and wrong. Yet.. her parents try to preach to me that their religion teaches them right from wrong and that their "right & wrong" is the correct one. They are also very controlling, judgemental, pushy, 2-faced, and negative in every aspect... OMG! is this what u learn in church and how family is supposed to be?? They found out we swing, and told me its adultry and we're cheating and its immoral.. OK, umm.. we;re not married and what we do is 100% consentual... funny, but seems like the more LDS we meet, the more seem to be JACK mormons. so why are LDS swinging or why are swingers in religions that condem it? is it just for the prestige and status of being in the church and to shut the family up??
Ok, #1, I hate ppl who follow a faith and feel theirs is the correct one so much that they push it on everyone and judge other beliefs as the wrong ones rather then understanding tolerance and the fact that there is no such thing as right or wrong... only opinion and difference... what works for you may not work for me.
#2, I hate hypocrates. ppl who preach about how much they follow their religion, go to church and lie in front of everyone there about how much they follow the rules and how the church has saved them.. Then, behind closed doors, they go against everything they believe in. Then they preach about how much they follow their churches rules and its "right & wrong" is the ultimate. Those ppl are called liars and 2-facers..
#3, Kids should be taught "Right & Wrong" from their parents, not a group of ppl that i described in examples #1 & #2. WTF do they know?? Kids should also be introduced to church by their own choice and when they are old enuf to understand it.
In my opinion, If you wanna swing, then it doesnt seem like u really believe in ur church's beliefs... why are u in it? If u believe ur church's teachings above all.. then why are you swinging?
I have nuthing against either, but I think its best to pick a side. Thats why I dont follow any religion.. I dont believe in any of them... too many hypocrates, liars, 2-facers, judgemental, stuck-ups... people who are willing to bend and cheat their own rules, morals and beliefs behind closed doors and especially when its to their benefit...
Ok, #1, I hate ppl who follow a faith and feel theirs is the correct one so much that they push it on everyone and judge other beliefs as the wrong ones rather then understanding tolerance and the fact that there is no such thing as right or wrong... only opinion and difference... what works for you may not work for me.
#2, I hate hypocrates. ppl who preach about how much they follow their religion, go to church and lie in front of everyone there about how much they follow the rules and how the church has saved them.. Then, behind closed doors, they go against everything they believe in. Then they preach about how much they follow their churches rules and its "right & wrong" is the ultimate. Those ppl are called liars and 2-facers..
#3, Kids should be taught "Right & Wrong" from their parents, not a group of ppl that i described in examples #1 & #2. WTF do they know?? Kids should also be introduced to church by their own choice and when they are old enuf to understand it.
In my opinion, If you wanna swing, then it doesnt seem like u really believe in ur church's beliefs... why are u in it? If u believe ur church's teachings above all.. then why are you swinging?
I have nuthing against either, but I think its best to pick a side. Thats why I dont follow any religion.. I dont believe in any of them... too many hypocrates, liars, 2-facers, judgemental, stuck-ups... people who are willing to bend and cheat their own rules, morals and beliefs behind closed doors and especially when its to their benefit...
Let me just start off by saying i believe in God. I see him in the mountains or in a slow moving stream or in anything you find to be beautiful in the world....
That being said God is in your heart not in your church. Organized religions are just as corrupt as governments. Most wars in the history of the world have been fought over religion. And i don't believe anyones God would be o.k. with that concept.
Sex is a natural instinct it is ingrained in humans and animals to procreate most animal species have multiple sex partners as well as i believe so should humans. if we werent supposed to you wouldn't always be looking for potential mates or fantasies... Religion trys to control the masses by saying this is a bad thing etc...
I don't believe anyone who is a true supporter of organized religion could be a swinger with a clear conscience it goes against what your religion states...Therfore my stance is you just have to decide what is right for you and still be able to sleep at night...we believe what we do and it works for us...So that is balance i guess.
Thanks for listening to my rambling
Lucky & Naughty
That being said God is in your heart not in your church. Organized religions are just as corrupt as governments. Most wars in the history of the world have been fought over religion. And i don't believe anyones God would be o.k. with that concept.
Sex is a natural instinct it is ingrained in humans and animals to procreate most animal species have multiple sex partners as well as i believe so should humans. if we werent supposed to you wouldn't always be looking for potential mates or fantasies... Religion trys to control the masses by saying this is a bad thing etc...
I don't believe anyone who is a true supporter of organized religion could be a swinger with a clear conscience it goes against what your religion states...Therfore my stance is you just have to decide what is right for you and still be able to sleep at night...we believe what we do and it works for us...So that is balance i guess.
Thanks for listening to my rambling
Lucky & Naughty
We totally agree with u on everything morgancouple. Just hope u picked a side already as far as organized or unorganized religion...
as i said earlier...
" Thats why I dont follow any religion.. I dont believe in any of them... too many hypocrates, liars, 2-facers, judgemental, stuck-ups... people who are willing to bend and cheat their own rules, morals and beliefs behind closed doors and especially when its to their benefit... "
Dont be a double-standard and cheat ur religion only cuz u believe in urself and u should be allowed to swing..
as i said earlier...
" Thats why I dont follow any religion.. I dont believe in any of them... too many hypocrates, liars, 2-facers, judgemental, stuck-ups... people who are willing to bend and cheat their own rules, morals and beliefs behind closed doors and especially when its to their benefit... "
Dont be a double-standard and cheat ur religion only cuz u believe in urself and u should be allowed to swing..
Just hope u picked a side already as far as organized or unorganized religion...
Yep picked our Religion sometimes we attend the church of the seventhday fishing hole sometimes its the church of the holy Nascar sometimes its the seventh day swingin chapel lol....
But seriously I totally agree with you....
Yep picked our Religion sometimes we attend the church of the seventhday fishing hole sometimes its the church of the holy Nascar sometimes its the seventh day swingin chapel lol....
But seriously I totally agree with you....
LMAO sounds like my "church" too..lol.. my church involves loud music, colored lights and a bartender..
My church is the whole city of Las Vegas.... LMFAO
I was born/raised there...
My church is the whole city of Las Vegas.... LMFAO
I was born/raised there...
I do think that the Christian church has it wrong regarding non-adulterous sex. After all Jesus said that the law was made up of love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. That says nothing about voluntary, non-cheating sex.
I hope there is a Christian Swingers group (When the groups are back up) because this is a good topic, I learned a lot from a group on another site.
Here is an interesting site: http://www.libchrist.com/
Mr. C
I hope there is a Christian Swingers group (When the groups are back up) because this is a good topic, I learned a lot from a group on another site.
Here is an interesting site: http://www.libchrist.com/
Mr. C
I'm so extremely glad I grow up in a country that left religion behind hundred years ago or so... A thread like this would never appear on a web site like this back home.
HE76_SHE80 wrote:
I'm so extremely glad I grow up in a country that left religion behind hundred years ago or so... A thread like this would never appear on a web site like this back home.
Then it sounds like it is a good thing that you moved to a country that values diversity as much as we do.
Mr. C
Wow........what a topic. Many avid church goers would have a person believe that wanting anything may be considered a sin. Coveting would certainly have to come before acting upon it.
I have always been one to believe that if a person feels guilt about an act or desire it must be wrong to some extent FOR THAT PERSON to act that way or desire in that manner. What is considered right or wrong is at least partially dependent on the belief structure of each individual. If it feels good, does not harm others and does not bring about feelings of regret, guilt or remorse is must not be wrong. If it does a person is not being true to themselves and that may be the biggest sin of all.
I have always been one to believe that if a person feels guilt about an act or desire it must be wrong to some extent FOR THAT PERSON to act that way or desire in that manner. What is considered right or wrong is at least partially dependent on the belief structure of each individual. If it feels good, does not harm others and does not bring about feelings of regret, guilt or remorse is must not be wrong. If it does a person is not being true to themselves and that may be the biggest sin of all.
BRANKI wrote:
Wow........what a topic. Many avid church goers would have a person believe that wanting anything may be considered a sin. Coveting would certainly have to come before acting upon it. I have always been one to believe that if a person feels guilt about an act or desire it must be wrong to some extent FOR THAT PERSON to act that way or desire in that manner. What is considered right or wrong is at least partially dependent on the belief structure of each individual. If it feels good, does not harm others and does not bring about feelings of regret, guilt or remorse is must not be wrong. If it does a person is not being true to themselves and that may be the biggest sin of all.
It is interesting that you bring up coveting. The way it was used in the Greek was the desire to deprive another of his property. Another man's wife was listed with an ox, so it is not the sex that is a sin but adultery, trying to steal or take someone
PASSION4GROUPFUN wrote:
The two issues that cause potential problems for humanity could involve either accidentally creating a child during recreational sex or in passing on a disease...both which could have longer-term consequences for humanity and thus a concern by many groups. If those two aspects were insured to be avoided, then I think sex would be less controlled by society or religion. Having said that, I agree with other comments that it is really a matter where a person must decide if swinging really fits their inner beliefs or not and come to peace with that... Obviously, there are different levels of swinging also.
Those are the key points. Even if non-adulterous sex is a "sin" (I don't think it is)the main reason for it would not be because God doesn't like us to enjoy it but for protection from disease, unwanted pregnancy and any emotional issues that could cause other problems.
That is why the apostle Paul said
CLIFFNOTES wrote:HE76_SHE80 wrote:
I'm so extremely glad I grow up in a country that left religion behind hundred years ago or so... A thread like this would never appear on a web site like this back home.
Then it sounds like it is a good thing that you moved to a country that values diversity as much as we do.
Mr. C
To be honest, by writing that you show a very inaccurate view of the world. The US I see here is much less valuing diversity than my home country and our neighbor country's are. Your self image that US is "the land of the free" and a land in a leading position in development is so inaccurate. Moving here is like traveling back at least 20-30 years in time, in some aspects 100 years. Anything from banking systems and transport to things like laws and religion. I read in the forum here a while ago that in some US states it's actually illegal to have sex with other persons than your spouse... How free is that?
I'm the kind of person who "take custom where you come to", so as long as I live here I accept that I live here as a guest and follow what ever rules US sets up.
But! It's very sad to hear that so many Americans live with such a inaccurate, distorted and in many cases just completely wrong picture of the rest of the world and US and in comparison with other countries.
HE76_SHE80 wrote:To be honest, by writing that you show a very inaccurate view of the world. The US I see here is much less valuing diversity than my home country and our neighbor country's are. Your self image that US is "the land of the free" and a land in a leading position in development is so inaccurate. Moving here is like traveling back at least 20-30 years in time, in some aspects 100 years. Anything from banking systems and transport to things like laws and religion. I read in the forum here a while ago that in some US states it's actually illegal to have sex with other persons than your spouse... How free is that? I'm the kind of person who "take custom where you come to", so as long as I live here I accept that I live here as a guest and follow what ever rules US sets up. But! It's very sad to hear that so many Americans live with such a inaccurate, distorted and in many cases just completely wrong picture of the rest of the world and US and in comparison with other countries. [/quote]CLIFFNOTES wrote:Then it sounds like it is a good thing that you moved to a country that values diversity as much as we do. Mr. C
[quote=HE76_SHE80]I'm so extremely glad I grow up in a country that left religion behind hundred years ago or so... A thread like this would never appear on a web site like this back home.
It is called sarcasm. You come on and say that it is good that religion is not discussed in your home country. I find it funny that the lack of something being discussed is called diversity, sorry.
Mr. C
Religion is discussed back home, but not likely in a forum like this, because 99% of the population don't let any region control there life. So there is not a issue to discuss as it seem to be over here. Just the same as that we don't discuss any "Middle Ages" laws in regards to our sexual life...
I just pointed out that I'm glad to be born in a country that is not controlled by religion. Maybe my point did not reach out, after all... I'm not English speaking native so
I just pointed out that I'm glad to be born in a country that is not controlled by religion. Maybe my point did not reach out, after all... I'm not English speaking native so
HE76_SHE80 wrote:
Religion is discussed back home, but not likely in a forum like this, because 99% of the population don't let any region control there life. So there is not a issue to discuss as it seem to be over here. Just the same as that we don't discuss any "Middle Ages" laws in regards to our sexual life... I just pointed out that I'm glad to be born in a country that is not controlled by religion. Maybe my point did not reach out, after all... I'm not English speaking native so
Ok, I accept that. I don't think anyone is saying it controls their life but it is important to many, it just seemed as if you were mocking us. That being said I think most of what the Christian church says about sex is incorrect, topics like this help to dispel the myths.
I am a native and I have trouble with English, so no worries.
Mr. C
It all depends on what you believe SIN is and if the lifestyle is sinful. Sex is not sinful unless you think it's dirty and perverse. How can anyone consider the lifestyle if they think sex is dirty or perverse.... Having sex with anyone is a choice that one makes and hopefully enjoys... One of the great gifts we have to give each other. If the idea offends then why even consider the lifestyle, now that would be a sin...LOL whatever that might be. So if there is a conflict between the life one chooses and the pursuit of that life then, I guess, that might be sinful. Sin isn't a act but how one views it which might be sinful.
Just my dollar three eighty seven's worth...
Ray
Just my dollar three eighty seven's worth...
Ray
How many of us know something is bad for us, and do it anyway? You have to find a way to come to terms with what your were taught and how much fun it's ok for you to have.
My sin is cookies and ice cream. I know they're bad for me, but they're so good going down! That's why I try not to over indulge.
My sin is cookies and ice cream. I know they're bad for me, but they're so good going down! That's why I try not to over indulge.
INDEPENDENCE-GUY wrote:
I would suppose that if God created men and women to be sexually promiscuous, he/she/it would also provide the means with which to defeat most or all diseases transmitted by following our inherent sexual natures. Unless, of course, he/she/it is a poor creator, and goes about creating things in a half-ass fashion.
.
If people are made in God's image, this would explain a lot of people? lmao
I hear a lot of you saying what the WORLD says about organized religion, but, it doesn't sound like any of you are Knowledgeable in respect as to what GOD really wants and IS. I'm not putting anyone down, you would have to be a Scholar to know all that. What WE call organized religion has been filtered down from what JESUS taught his disciples to teach others. That said, There is no "happy medium" between (so called) organized religion and swinging. According to the Ten Commandments, if you are married, you are indeed committing Adultery, if you are single you are Fornicating. These TEN rules are the basis for ALL organized religions and it started with the Hebrews (JEWS). At the time, all other so called GODS called for orgies,prostitution,and adultery depending on which God was in favor at the time.
Okay, so much for that. To be a believer means that you believe in what GOD says. Satan has only one job and that is to keep you from GOD. So, if GOD doesn't want you to have sex outside of marriage, WHO do you think would be saying it's alright? The thing you need to remember is that we are given free will to CHOOSE what we want to do. THROUGH religion. Not in spite of it. Swinging may not be 'right' but it's just another sin. What did JESUS come to earth for? To save our souls, through his Perfect sacrifice, and forgiveness of sins. So, are we then forgiven for swinging? If WE are believers in GOD/JESUS then the answer would be YES.
So, to denounce all religions as weird, pushy, quirky, or misguided is erroneous.
Or as I used to say..."Do what you like, if it's wrong, it doesn't matter now, wait until you die and get the definitive answer from the ONLY one who knows". 'nuff said. Swing
Okay, so much for that. To be a believer means that you believe in what GOD says. Satan has only one job and that is to keep you from GOD. So, if GOD doesn't want you to have sex outside of marriage, WHO do you think would be saying it's alright? The thing you need to remember is that we are given free will to CHOOSE what we want to do. THROUGH religion. Not in spite of it. Swinging may not be 'right' but it's just another sin. What did JESUS come to earth for? To save our souls, through his Perfect sacrifice, and forgiveness of sins. So, are we then forgiven for swinging? If WE are believers in GOD/JESUS then the answer would be YES.
So, to denounce all religions as weird, pushy, quirky, or misguided is erroneous.
Or as I used to say..."Do what you like, if it's wrong, it doesn't matter now, wait until you die and get the definitive answer from the ONLY one who knows". 'nuff said. Swing
I hear a lot of you saying what the WORLD says about organized religion, but, it doesn't sound like any of you are Knowledgeable in respect as to what GOD really wants and IS. I'm not putting anyone down, you would have to be a Scholar to know all that. What WE call organized religion has been filtered down from what JESUS taught his disciples to teach others. That said, There is no "happy medium" between (so called) organized religion and swinging. According to the Ten Commandments, if you are married, you are indeed committing Adultery, if you are single you are Fornicating. These TEN rules are the basis for ALL organized religions and it started with the Hebrews (JEWS). At the time, all other so called GODS called for orgies,prostitution,and adultery depending on which God was in favor at the time.
Okay, so much for that. To be a believer means that you believe in what GOD says. Satan has only one job and that is to keep you from GOD. So, if GOD doesn't want you to have sex outside of marriage, WHO do you think would be saying it's alright? The thing you need to remember is that we are given free will to CHOOSE what we want to do. THROUGH religion. Not in spite of it. Swinging may not be 'right' but it's just another sin. What did JESUS come to earth for? To save our souls, through his Perfect sacrifice, and forgiveness of sins. So, are we then forgiven for swinging? If WE are believers in GOD/JESUS then the answer would be YES.
So, to denounce all religions as weird, pushy, quirky, or misguided is erroneous.
Or as I used to say..."Do what you like, if it's wrong, it doesn't matter now, wait until you die and get the definitive answer from the ONLY one who knows". 'nuff said. Swing
Okay, so much for that. To be a believer means that you believe in what GOD says. Satan has only one job and that is to keep you from GOD. So, if GOD doesn't want you to have sex outside of marriage, WHO do you think would be saying it's alright? The thing you need to remember is that we are given free will to CHOOSE what we want to do. THROUGH religion. Not in spite of it. Swinging may not be 'right' but it's just another sin. What did JESUS come to earth for? To save our souls, through his Perfect sacrifice, and forgiveness of sins. So, are we then forgiven for swinging? If WE are believers in GOD/JESUS then the answer would be YES.
So, to denounce all religions as weird, pushy, quirky, or misguided is erroneous.
Or as I used to say..."Do what you like, if it's wrong, it doesn't matter now, wait until you die and get the definitive answer from the ONLY one who knows". 'nuff said. Swing
Does saying OH MY GOD while orgasming count?
LOL, luscious, unfortunately NO. I think that everyone would be "believers" then. I can just here the guy screaming out "Make me a believer Baby". LMAO
SWINGONMYVINE wrote:
I hear a lot of you saying what the WORLD says about organized religion, but, it doesn't sound like any of you are Knowledgeable in respect as to what GOD really wants and IS. I'm not putting anyone down, you would have to be a Scholar to know all that. What WE call organized religion has been filtered down from what JESUS taught his disciples to teach others. That said, There is no "happy medium" between (so called) organized religion and swinging. According to the Ten Commandments, if you are married, you are indeed committing Adultery, if you are single you are Fornicating. These TEN rules are the basis for ALL organized religions and it started with the Hebrews (JEWS). At the time, all other so called GODS called for orgies,prostitution,and adultery depending on which God was in favor at the time. Okay, so much for that. To be a believer means that you believe in what GOD says. Satan has only one job and that is to keep you from GOD. So, if GOD doesn't want you to have sex outside of marriage, WHO do you think would be saying it's alright? The thing you need to remember is that we are given free will to CHOOSE what we want to do. THROUGH religion. Not in spite of it. Swinging may not be 'right' but it's just another sin. What did JESUS come to earth for? To save our souls, through his Perfect sacrifice, and forgiveness of sins. So, are we then forgiven for swinging? If WE are believers in GOD/JESUS then the answer would be YES. So, to denounce all religions as weird, pushy, quirky, or misguided is erroneous. Or as I used to say..."Do what you like, if it's wrong, it doesn't matter now, wait until you die and get the definitive answer from the ONLY one who knows". 'nuff said. Swing
I
Since my initial post long ago (and given my vouyeristic tendencies) I have been content to watch this exchange from the sidelines with intrigue if not bemusement. Some insightful points and healthy exchanges, while others are myopic and misguided attempts to define sin within the restrictive prism of the past 2,000 years. A few points have been missed, however (or I didn't read all of the posts closely enough).
1) There is a fundamental difference between religion and moral values, or the ethos by which we live our lives. Whether or not you believe god defined those values (or wrote them with his finger on tablets of stone), men's interpretations (primarily men but there are a few instances of women) of those values led to the creation of religions, with individual interpretations leading to myriad sects espousing different tenets, and hence religions. Religion became the mechanism to control people's lives, even to the point of warfare to force others to adhere to those tenets (just ask the Cathars who were hunted by the pope to extinction because they had a different view of Christianity, or the Mormon dissidents who were assinated by Brother Brigham's Dannite henchmen). A moral code by which we live our lives has absolutely unequivocally nothing to do with religion.
2) Religion as defined above (individuals claiming exlusive right to determine god's will) has been around for at least 12,000 years, perhaps longer in Asia, whereas spiritual belief systems (belief in an afterlife, fertility rites, etc.) have been practiced by most human groups (and maybe even our genetic cousins the Neandertals) from at least 50,000 years ago. A desire to believe in something greater than ourselves is firmly rooted in our oversized brain, perhaps a consequence of our ability to acknowledge and explain our mortality.
3) Apologies to the Christians out there who bear testimony to the one true god, but the Old Testament and New Testament are collections of myths and oral histories that have little if anything to do with what really happened. The books of the NT were written 100 to 150 years after Jesus walked the planet, and Christian orthodoxy was not established until 340 years later, at which time a bunch of men sat around and decided what was in and what was out. Scores of Gnostic texts celebrating Jesus as a spiritual teacher and that human purpose was spiritual (rather than based on the ressurection)were subsequently eliminated from the official cannon. Men claiming divine right decided Jesus was a son of God and the dead would be ressurected through him. It is mindboddgling that anyone in an enlightened society could claim the Bible contains the actual words of god based on oral histories in a largely preliterate society. The OT? Written thousands of years after the events occurred, by men claiming they knew exactly what Adam and Abraham and Noah said. Really? Sometimes you have to call bullshit.
4) Who gave the Judeo-Christian orthodoxy exclusive claim to truth? Our Euroamerican forefathers did, rejecting all other truths engrained in the many other ideologies of the world, past and present, and villifying all other truth no matter where it was found. Someone bemoaned the orgies that defined pre-Hebrew occupation of Palestine. Really? The worship of Astarte, or in her many other forms as the Earth Goddess, was around for thousands of years (certainly longer than Christianity) and it served society well as the human species evolved from primarily dispersed hunters and gatherers to aggregated agriculturalists. It was, at its core, a religion that employed sex as an enticement to the masses to produce more food, pay more taxes and submit to the ruling elite, thereby maintaining social order (and preserving the social stratification that emerged with increased urbanization). And the prostitution that was referred to? It was a social mechanism to fund the religious-based government (prostitutes were temple priestesses, and yes there were male prostitutes for the women). The Hebrews claimed divine right to exterminate all who did not believe as they did, and Astarte was relegated to the mists of history. Hmmmm. I sense a pattern developing here.
5) Monogamy as a fundamental practice of Judeo-Christian religions is a myth promulgated by religious zealots with no grasp of history. Popes throughout history had lovers, the ruling men of Europe claimed sexual rights over the women within their domain (ever heard of First Night, the rite wherein the lord of the domain gets to fuck the bride on her wedding before her husband, all under sanction by the church?), many different Christian sects in Europe and America espoused free love over the past 250 years (jealousy was viewed as a sin that must be overcome to reach true enlightment), and Christian and non-Crhistian societies throughout the world embraced polygeny as societally beneficial, all with religious sanction (granted, it is usually the wealthy elite members of the society, religious or governmental, who actually engaged in the practice). Somewhat ironic that Christians and Muslims in many parts of the world still practice polygeny without outrage from world (Brother Brigham must be smirking somewhere).
Humans are at their core sexually promiscuous (see earlier posting as to the evolutionary reasons behind this), and all the religion in the world will not change who we are at our genetic core. You can choose to call it a sin if you really believe god is talking to someone claiming that divine right. But the reality is sin is the psychological baggage we carry from generations of indoctrination, and god is just a make believe friend for grown ups.
Enough ranting. I will go back to the sidelines.
But if it helps you sleep at night ...
1) There is a fundamental difference between religion and moral values, or the ethos by which we live our lives. Whether or not you believe god defined those values (or wrote them with his finger on tablets of stone), men's interpretations (primarily men but there are a few instances of women) of those values led to the creation of religions, with individual interpretations leading to myriad sects espousing different tenets, and hence religions. Religion became the mechanism to control people's lives, even to the point of warfare to force others to adhere to those tenets (just ask the Cathars who were hunted by the pope to extinction because they had a different view of Christianity, or the Mormon dissidents who were assinated by Brother Brigham's Dannite henchmen). A moral code by which we live our lives has absolutely unequivocally nothing to do with religion.
2) Religion as defined above (individuals claiming exlusive right to determine god's will) has been around for at least 12,000 years, perhaps longer in Asia, whereas spiritual belief systems (belief in an afterlife, fertility rites, etc.) have been practiced by most human groups (and maybe even our genetic cousins the Neandertals) from at least 50,000 years ago. A desire to believe in something greater than ourselves is firmly rooted in our oversized brain, perhaps a consequence of our ability to acknowledge and explain our mortality.
3) Apologies to the Christians out there who bear testimony to the one true god, but the Old Testament and New Testament are collections of myths and oral histories that have little if anything to do with what really happened. The books of the NT were written 100 to 150 years after Jesus walked the planet, and Christian orthodoxy was not established until 340 years later, at which time a bunch of men sat around and decided what was in and what was out. Scores of Gnostic texts celebrating Jesus as a spiritual teacher and that human purpose was spiritual (rather than based on the ressurection)were subsequently eliminated from the official cannon. Men claiming divine right decided Jesus was a son of God and the dead would be ressurected through him. It is mindboddgling that anyone in an enlightened society could claim the Bible contains the actual words of god based on oral histories in a largely preliterate society. The OT? Written thousands of years after the events occurred, by men claiming they knew exactly what Adam and Abraham and Noah said. Really? Sometimes you have to call bullshit.
4) Who gave the Judeo-Christian orthodoxy exclusive claim to truth? Our Euroamerican forefathers did, rejecting all other truths engrained in the many other ideologies of the world, past and present, and villifying all other truth no matter where it was found. Someone bemoaned the orgies that defined pre-Hebrew occupation of Palestine. Really? The worship of Astarte, or in her many other forms as the Earth Goddess, was around for thousands of years (certainly longer than Christianity) and it served society well as the human species evolved from primarily dispersed hunters and gatherers to aggregated agriculturalists. It was, at its core, a religion that employed sex as an enticement to the masses to produce more food, pay more taxes and submit to the ruling elite, thereby maintaining social order (and preserving the social stratification that emerged with increased urbanization). And the prostitution that was referred to? It was a social mechanism to fund the religious-based government (prostitutes were temple priestesses, and yes there were male prostitutes for the women). The Hebrews claimed divine right to exterminate all who did not believe as they did, and Astarte was relegated to the mists of history. Hmmmm. I sense a pattern developing here.
5) Monogamy as a fundamental practice of Judeo-Christian religions is a myth promulgated by religious zealots with no grasp of history. Popes throughout history had lovers, the ruling men of Europe claimed sexual rights over the women within their domain (ever heard of First Night, the rite wherein the lord of the domain gets to fuck the bride on her wedding before her husband, all under sanction by the church?), many different Christian sects in Europe and America espoused free love over the past 250 years (jealousy was viewed as a sin that must be overcome to reach true enlightment), and Christian and non-Crhistian societies throughout the world embraced polygeny as societally beneficial, all with religious sanction (granted, it is usually the wealthy elite members of the society, religious or governmental, who actually engaged in the practice). Somewhat ironic that Christians and Muslims in many parts of the world still practice polygeny without outrage from world (Brother Brigham must be smirking somewhere).
Humans are at their core sexually promiscuous (see earlier posting as to the evolutionary reasons behind this), and all the religion in the world will not change who we are at our genetic core. You can choose to call it a sin if you really believe god is talking to someone claiming that divine right. But the reality is sin is the psychological baggage we carry from generations of indoctrination, and god is just a make believe friend for grown ups.
Enough ranting. I will go back to the sidelines.
But if it helps you sleep at night ...
SWINGONMYVINE wrote:
I hear a lot of you saying what the WORLD says about organized religion, but, it doesn't sound like any of you are Knowledgeable in respect as to what GOD really wants and IS.
does this mean you've met god personally and had a heart to heart?
sorry, couldnt resist. :P
in general: i think this is the most interesting forum i've read in a very long time. and it didnt turn into a huge ugly fight either. yay
INDEPENDENCE-GUY wrote:
That's quite an interpretation of the biblical storyline. So, when Jesus purportedly told the female prostitute to, "Go thy way and sin no more," the word sin was a mistranslation? Or was she a lesbian (or transvestite) who was sleeping with married men's wives and therefore committing the true definition of adultery? Or was she only sinning until Jesus died and then it was ok? Perhaps he wanted her to take a temporary vacation from prostitution until he could fulfill the law? I'm confused. Could she still do hand jobs?
Good question, I'll need to do a little research. Are you talking about John 8:11? This was a woman caught in the act of adultery (John 8:4) I think it is just assumed she was a prostitute.
Many prostitutes of the day were temple prostitutes who did pagan idol worship as part of their trade.
Mr. C
ABCMAN wrote:
http://www.libchrist.com/swing/happysafestudies.html someone asked about Christian swinging groups...we'll here ya go. I think the animosity in Utah about religion comes from one direct source in most cases (LDS Church).. but of course some of the Christian (fundamentalist...bible beating) crazies can drive one crazy as well. The reality is that I have not seen a man made religion yet that isn't focused on control of it's flock. My question is how much did Christ push the idea of a church and how much of it was his disciples and Paul later on in the bible. Cliffnotes, I actually think you make a good point...context is so important in reading ancient documents, and the bible would classify as one. To use 21st century definitions or perceptions is useless in understanding 60 AD Jerusalem. I do think that you make a good point regarding David and Solomon, but of course the counter to that is that the Lord gave them their wives and concubines (,,,,Joseph Smith and the Mormons think this way...) Personally I don't see why a GOD would only give a King many wives and not the common bloke out in the wheat field, and frankly I wouldn't put much stock in some Old Testament tale or atleast the justification for them having many wives. I'm sure God really didn't give them anymore then anyone else. As for swinging, my personal feeling is that if your intent is not to harm, be in physical, be it emotional, then go for it. But that can cover a wide range of possible situations. I think there are ethical issues that always need to be addressed if your going to last long in the lifestyle. #1 Don't break rules you and your significant other set up between one another, and always communicate. #2 If it isn't a gift to one another, then maybe you need to reevaluate why your doing it. #3 If your looking at it as an escape, then you maybe doing harm to your partner or another persons marriage. #4 If your single and looking for a long term mate, then don't covet some other persons spouse, no matter what they may say or do. If he/she is falling for you, then do the ethically thing and break it off. It just causes harm to everyone involved in those situations, and don't think for a minute that you won't suffer long term ramifications from that type of situation. I'd let the couple work it out or they leave on another before I'd get involved again with that person. #5 Safe Sex, not only for you but your partner and others as well. (Golden Rule) if these sound patronizing then I apologize, but personally this is the approach I've taken, and my wife as well. So far it's worked out well.
Good post! By Groups I am talking about the groups that will soon be available on this site. In another site there was a group called Christian Swingers, it was very interesting and educational. I seem to remember a LDS swingers group also. But that is a good website you posted.
INDEPENDENCE-GUY wrote:
Yes, they were about to stone her for adultery. If the story is real, and if she were sexing it up for Baal, don't you think they would have made a bigger issue of it? What I can't understand is what was Jesus telling her to do when he told her to stop sinning? What you appear to be suggesting is that her only sin could have been: 1) to have sex with married women (the only way you could commit your definition of adultery) 2) to have sex as part of worshipping a pagan god, or 3) to sleep around until Jesus was done dying to repeal the law. All three seem pretty implausible, though I must admit I find most biblical teachings, examples, and stories to be so.
I am not sure what you mean by make a bigger deal of it? Who?
This story is probably not even true, it is not found in any manuscripts until the 4th or 5th century. Be that as it may it is either added to show about judgment or some could use it to demonize sex.
Jesus didn
We will try to keep this simple if that is possible. God is a superstition. Aztecs had their sun gods, native americans have thier "spirits". Who is to say one is right and another is wrong. A few simple rules to live by
1. Don't kill
2. Don't steal
3. Don't lie
4. Treat everyone like you want to be treated.
Organized religion is all about the $$$$$.
Lets just try to be good to each other.
1. Don't kill
2. Don't steal
3. Don't lie
4. Treat everyone like you want to be treated.
Organized religion is all about the $$$$$.
Lets just try to be good to each other.
This thread has gone off topic, it has gone from asking how to balance religion and the lifestyle to more of a generic predictable diatribe against religion and faith.
I
I
I think that there is a god but he does not want his children punished or unhappy. We got into the lifestyle to avoid the break ups and misery that you see all around you these days. We are much more happy together today and a far better family for swinging. Bible thumpers have mentally sick emeshed relationships with there children and between their spouses. We have personally seen that kind of family end up in suicide. Very sad.
I find it interesting as I read through this forum topic the judgment that is cast.
Because you do or do not follow a faith of any kind does not by the nature of that make you good, bad, right or wrong.
We were raised by religious families and we accept that they do not think and feel as we do and vice-versa....
I will not sit here and claim to know about all religions nor will I claim to know all about one in particular. But I do know, that with what I have seen, there is not one out there that I would follow completely. That is a choice that I make and I commend people that follow what they do for whatever reason they do so.
I have always loved the words "Judge not lest thee be judged." Just because you are judged does not give you the right to do so as well....
The subjectiveness of right and wrong is something that leads to debate in the subject of religion and that sometimes leads to debates between two right or wrong thinking groups by the nature of it.... But then that is subjective as well!
To close this all out as I am sure that any one of us could go on all day about this. We all make the choices to do what we will. If there is a God and the after life then we will at some point all know what that brings in the end. And if there is not then I hope to be remembered by the ones left here as being someone that cared about them even if they may not have cared for me. For now I live my life morally correct based on what I view as moral. I may be wrong or I may be right. But in the end I will stand strong knowing that my intent was to live my life caring about others and understanding the differences between myself and others and accepting that as just that, the differences.... This is also part of the reason that I myself am in this lifestyle because I like differences in people and this is one way that I can explore a few of those differences. Also, on that note, my intent in this lifestyle has been to never do harm but I do not have the naivety of believing that I have never done so because we all could be harmed in ways that others will never understand..... But we all enter into this lifestyle as adults and we know there can be dangers in every aspect of it.
Because you do or do not follow a faith of any kind does not by the nature of that make you good, bad, right or wrong.
We were raised by religious families and we accept that they do not think and feel as we do and vice-versa....
I will not sit here and claim to know about all religions nor will I claim to know all about one in particular. But I do know, that with what I have seen, there is not one out there that I would follow completely. That is a choice that I make and I commend people that follow what they do for whatever reason they do so.
I have always loved the words "Judge not lest thee be judged." Just because you are judged does not give you the right to do so as well....
The subjectiveness of right and wrong is something that leads to debate in the subject of religion and that sometimes leads to debates between two right or wrong thinking groups by the nature of it.... But then that is subjective as well!
To close this all out as I am sure that any one of us could go on all day about this. We all make the choices to do what we will. If there is a God and the after life then we will at some point all know what that brings in the end. And if there is not then I hope to be remembered by the ones left here as being someone that cared about them even if they may not have cared for me. For now I live my life morally correct based on what I view as moral. I may be wrong or I may be right. But in the end I will stand strong knowing that my intent was to live my life caring about others and understanding the differences between myself and others and accepting that as just that, the differences.... This is also part of the reason that I myself am in this lifestyle because I like differences in people and this is one way that I can explore a few of those differences. Also, on that note, my intent in this lifestyle has been to never do harm but I do not have the naivety of believing that I have never done so because we all could be harmed in ways that others will never understand..... But we all enter into this lifestyle as adults and we know there can be dangers in every aspect of it.