A married friend and I recently debated the morality of swinging vs. cheating. Because \"vanilla\" people have such a limited understanding of the lifestyle as it truly is (and by this I mean some idea other than what is presented in print and movie media) they sometimes mistakenly assume that one is synonymous with the other.
What are your thoughts on this issue?
What are your thoughts on this issue?
We don\'t feel that the lifestyle is cheating since both partners are fully aware of everything the other is doing. Its out in the open. If either of us decides they want to play alone the other is fully aware of who it is we are with and where we are going.
Cheating is when only one partner is aware he or she is playing around.
Cheating is when only one partner is aware he or she is playing around.
It is important that we outline what we consider the phrase \"cheating\" to be:
For the sake of this forum, lets define cheating as a willful act of a sexual nature committed without your partner\'s concent. Of course it could encompass many other types of activities, but this should serve the purpose we need it to for this discussion.
For the sake of this forum, lets define cheating as a willful act of a sexual nature committed without your partner\'s concent. Of course it could encompass many other types of activities, but this should serve the purpose we need it to for this discussion.
Isnt it interesting that a lot of \"vanilla\" people would rather cheat on their spouses than explore the benefits of the lifestyle openly and honestly?
Anybody want to jump in here?
Anybody want to jump in here?
It is very interesting how those \"vanilla\" people see us...they really have NO idea how much freedom and trust this lifestyle has to offer!!!
But then again, we do live in a world of small minded people....But if you ask me...this lifestyle has done wonders for me and my self confidence and self respect....its the comradery that is between us all that is awesome!!! Why cheat when you can watch....and participate??? Kiss Kiss
Tisha
But then again, we do live in a world of small minded people....But if you ask me...this lifestyle has done wonders for me and my self confidence and self respect....its the comradery that is between us all that is awesome!!! Why cheat when you can watch....and participate??? Kiss Kiss
Tisha
There is another issue here, playing with a married male or female posing as a single. Or, swingers having sex with a vanilla cheater. It does go on.
What makes swinging okay is being honest, everyone is aware of who\'s doing who and whatnot and everybody is honestly okay and up for it. If you have to be dishonest and sneak about in anyway. Or even if you\'re honest but someone in the situation is not okay with it and uncomfortable...then it\'s cheating. That\'s my definition.
**Isnt it interesting that a lot of \"vanilla\" people would rather cheat on their spouses than explore the benefits of the lifestyle openly and honestly?**
Ask the average \"vanilla\" person if they would consider allowing a partner to have sexual relations of any kind with another person of either the same or the opposite sex, and you will find that your answer varies depending on whom you ask! (But is usually NO WAY!)
If you ask a MAN, he will say he could do a threesome if his WIFE brought home a girl to play with, but in most cases only under those circumstances, and NEVER with another man present.
A lot of other guys wont even approach their wives with the idea of swinging because they dont want to hear NO, or feel that they do not know how to braoch the subject, or that she will be angry for the asking all together. But that same \"vanilla\" guy will go out and cheat on her...
These are the ones we AVOID on the websites. We feel that dishonesty has brought them to swinging, and the end result can only be disasterous for everyone involved.
Ask the average \"vanilla\" person if they would consider allowing a partner to have sexual relations of any kind with another person of either the same or the opposite sex, and you will find that your answer varies depending on whom you ask! (But is usually NO WAY!)
If you ask a MAN, he will say he could do a threesome if his WIFE brought home a girl to play with, but in most cases only under those circumstances, and NEVER with another man present.
A lot of other guys wont even approach their wives with the idea of swinging because they dont want to hear NO, or feel that they do not know how to braoch the subject, or that she will be angry for the asking all together. But that same \"vanilla\" guy will go out and cheat on her...
These are the ones we AVOID on the websites. We feel that dishonesty has brought them to swinging, and the end result can only be disasterous for everyone involved.
It seems we all agree here .. If you are playing and your partner dosnt it is cheating... We feel that even if you are in the lifestyle ,, if you step out of the boundries that you and your partner have set ,, it is cheating if they do not know .. And for us i know the lifestyle has made a good relationship even better ,, we are closer and more open with each other than we have ever been and it is an awesome feeling.
Is she related to Rosy Palm?
And We agree that as long as everyone is in agreement it is NOT cheating.... sometimes we might bend a rule for a one time thing for our spouse. A rule we would not normally cross over and only for that one time. That is why the trust is so important.
Swinging is a good amplifier.... if you have issues and mistrust,... it gets more noticable. If you are truely in love and want your partner to be happy that is amplified...
And We agree that as long as everyone is in agreement it is NOT cheating.... sometimes we might bend a rule for a one time thing for our spouse. A rule we would not normally cross over and only for that one time. That is why the trust is so important.
Swinging is a good amplifier.... if you have issues and mistrust,... it gets more noticable. If you are truely in love and want your partner to be happy that is amplified...
**Isnt it interesting that a lot of \"vanilla\" people would rather cheat on their spouses than explore the benefits of the lifestyle openly and honestly?**
I think that this is a VERY good question that somehow needs to be carried to everyone - \"vanilla\" or otherwise.
My wife and I have negotiated an agreement where I play alone (when I can find partners who understand my situation) - since she\'s tried swinging and doesn\'t have any use for it - but she respects the fact that I like it. What amazes me is the number of people in and out of \"The Lifestyle\" who condemn the arrangement - because, I guess, one is supposed to just get a divorce and end a *marriage* over something as \"unimportant\" as sex. I am dumbfounded at the general attitude that it is better to cheat - or to get divorced - rather than to recognize that often a husband and wife won\'t have matching sexual appetites. If I like to go bowling and she doesn\'t, we don\'t have to get a divorce over it. But if I like sex and she doesn\'t - we do???
I agree that swinging amplifies whatever relationship you have. In my case, I\'ve found THE \"life partner\" that I want - the one I want to share my *emotional* intimacy with. So because we have a mismatch on sexual intimacy, we have agreed to just treat it as \"another hobby\" - and it seems to me that that approach should be considered more sane than the \"normal\" approaches: cheating or divorce.
i.e. I agree - and think that more of society ought to take a hard look at how short our marriages are - and ways to perhaps fix that problem.
I think that this is a VERY good question that somehow needs to be carried to everyone - \"vanilla\" or otherwise.
My wife and I have negotiated an agreement where I play alone (when I can find partners who understand my situation) - since she\'s tried swinging and doesn\'t have any use for it - but she respects the fact that I like it. What amazes me is the number of people in and out of \"The Lifestyle\" who condemn the arrangement - because, I guess, one is supposed to just get a divorce and end a *marriage* over something as \"unimportant\" as sex. I am dumbfounded at the general attitude that it is better to cheat - or to get divorced - rather than to recognize that often a husband and wife won\'t have matching sexual appetites. If I like to go bowling and she doesn\'t, we don\'t have to get a divorce over it. But if I like sex and she doesn\'t - we do???
I agree that swinging amplifies whatever relationship you have. In my case, I\'ve found THE \"life partner\" that I want - the one I want to share my *emotional* intimacy with. So because we have a mismatch on sexual intimacy, we have agreed to just treat it as \"another hobby\" - and it seems to me that that approach should be considered more sane than the \"normal\" approaches: cheating or divorce.
i.e. I agree - and think that more of society ought to take a hard look at how short our marriages are - and ways to perhaps fix that problem.
We feel that communication is the key. Whether we are at a party or looking online, we both have to be in agreement for anything to happen. Maybe that makes us picky, but we want to make sure we are both 100% up for whatever happens. And we totally agree with bman(Tisha), \"why cheat when you can watch...or participate\".
BEARD>>> Thank you for helping me clarify what was to be my original intent of this post. While I do appreciate the replies everyone has been kind enough to share thus far, I think that I was more interested in exploring the psychological aspect of \"vanilla\" morality as opposed to the more obvious question of what is actually cheating. Perhaps I did not make my intention clear in the original thread.
That being said...
Vanilla couples often keep their inner most sexual desires from one another for fear of rejection , divorce, or plain old intolerance. I know a particular man who has been with his wife for 39 years, and has no desire to leave her...yet he frequently visits an adult video arcade to satisfy his need for homosexual stimulation and masterbation. She will not have any part of masterbation, or porn, let alone same sex activities...if she were to find out, he says she would surely divorce him. Is she sompletely closed minded. Yes, i think that she is. Is it right to do what he is doing without her knowledge...in my opinion, it is not.
The very same can be said for a lot of \"vanilla\" couples. The wife will secretly desire a co-worker or friend, go to great lengths to conceal her feelings, all the while the husband may be having similar thoughts of his own. Yet they will not reveal this to one another, their supposed soulmates and life partners, for fear of rejection, or plain jealousy.
In the same breath, these very people will go to church, read cosmo, and declare us moraly ambiguious like Dr. phil did last summer. Does anyone else see the inherent conflict in this?
More comments please....now we are having fun.
Luvbugs!
That being said...
Vanilla couples often keep their inner most sexual desires from one another for fear of rejection , divorce, or plain old intolerance. I know a particular man who has been with his wife for 39 years, and has no desire to leave her...yet he frequently visits an adult video arcade to satisfy his need for homosexual stimulation and masterbation. She will not have any part of masterbation, or porn, let alone same sex activities...if she were to find out, he says she would surely divorce him. Is she sompletely closed minded. Yes, i think that she is. Is it right to do what he is doing without her knowledge...in my opinion, it is not.
The very same can be said for a lot of \"vanilla\" couples. The wife will secretly desire a co-worker or friend, go to great lengths to conceal her feelings, all the while the husband may be having similar thoughts of his own. Yet they will not reveal this to one another, their supposed soulmates and life partners, for fear of rejection, or plain jealousy.
In the same breath, these very people will go to church, read cosmo, and declare us moraly ambiguious like Dr. phil did last summer. Does anyone else see the inherent conflict in this?
More comments please....now we are having fun.
Luvbugs!
PS- Getting caught jerking off in the bathroom does not in my mind constitute cheating! There are many reasons why a person feels that they have to resort to doing such a thing in the first place. Perhaps your brother has an issue with it and does it too much? Perhaps his ex wife is horrible at hand jobs and he wants to get the job done right? *wink!* Was this woman SO insecure that her husband masterbating threatened her marital security?
Either way it sounds as if there were much larger problems at hand in that realtionship, and the masterbation simply compounded them.
Either way it sounds as if there were much larger problems at hand in that realtionship, and the masterbation simply compounded them.
I travel quite a bit for work and I am always amazed at how many men and women will cheat when they are on a business trip and think nothing of it. Even though my wife gives me permission to have some \"fun\" when I\'m on business trips, I choose to wait and have fun when she\'s there with me. I think vanilla couples are afraid of ruining their marriages by being honest about their desires for other people. We\'ve been married for 13 years and I love my wife dearly, but that doesn\'t mean that I\'m not attracted to other women. This lifestyle allows both partners to explore their limits, if they have any, sexually, while vanilla couples, as we once were, are forced to hide their true sexual feelings for the most part for fear of rejection or divorce. Well, that\'s our 2 cents.
I love this Topic......LOL
I once hid my sexual desires in a past marriage(hence past)....I wanted desperately to experience other women, I would look at them lustifully, I would watch lesbian/BI porn while my husband wasnt home, and I feel that is WAY more immoral than me walking right up to my boyfriends best friend laying a huge kiss on him and grabbing his hand and letting him feel my breast under my shirt...all while my boyfriend is sitting back watching saying \" HELL YEA\", I can now explore and be honest with myself, and that in itself is.. some of MY moralities!!! Kiss Kiss
Tisha
I once hid my sexual desires in a past marriage(hence past)....I wanted desperately to experience other women, I would look at them lustifully, I would watch lesbian/BI porn while my husband wasnt home, and I feel that is WAY more immoral than me walking right up to my boyfriends best friend laying a huge kiss on him and grabbing his hand and letting him feel my breast under my shirt...all while my boyfriend is sitting back watching saying \" HELL YEA\", I can now explore and be honest with myself, and that in itself is.. some of MY moralities!!! Kiss Kiss
Tisha
Ah crud, here goes. From what I\'ve read so far I feel like I\'m going to be a target in a shooting gallery.
Ready...
Aim....
Okay, LUVBUGS said \"Isn\'t it interesting that a lot of \"vanilla\" people would rather cheat on their spouses than explore the benefits of the lifestyle openly and honestly?\" Yes, it would be wonderful. I\'ve tried that and it went straight to the divorce attorney. I told my spouse that I wanted to play with others, that I was interested in exploring sex to it\'s fullest, and that I would like her to do it with me. In the moments while she was speechless I also said I\'d welcome singles (male or females) couples or groups of people as long as we both felt okay with it. At that point she definitely told me she was not okay with it. Arguments ensued, I was labeled as uncaring, unloving, homosexual (since I made the male or female comment) and a cheater. The backlash, comments, and dirty looks went on for about 6 months then slowly ebbed but have not vanished as of yet. It\'s been almost six years now. I\'ve been married for 19.
I guess I\'m one of those \'vanilla\' guys you write about however I\'m not sure if I fit that description. I am willing to explore sex therefore don\'t see me as \'vanilla\', merely inexperienced. I know what I have and know there is more out there - for the both of us as well as whomever we play with. If anything, I need to apply the vanilla label to my spouse.
So for these reasons I am cheating. Yes, I admit it. I fit your definition. I also know that I have tried to open her eyes to the possibilities and was denied. Will this be disastrous to me or anyone else? Possibly. I don\'t deny that. I stay with my spouse because of children. It sounds like a cop-out but it is true. I don\'t want them to be hurt from a divorce as I have seen in other families. Yes, I also see what I am doing and what I say seems contradictory. I have three years until my oldest is on his own and then I will re-evaluate my situation. Until that time I will be here for my kids while I am also careful, discreet, and trying to fulfill my desires. You may say my cheating is going to damage them as well. It could. I have no answer for that. I must weigh the circumstances and do what I feel is appropriate and best. Our sexual drives are definitely different. I agree with the person who compared it to bowling - I like sex & she doesn\'t so does that means divorce? Perhaps, I\'ll find out in a few years.
Everyone has their own story, I doubt mine is unique. I ask you do not stereotype and alienate those who have tried to enter the lifestyle but ended up cheating.
Ready...
Aim....
Okay, LUVBUGS said \"Isn\'t it interesting that a lot of \"vanilla\" people would rather cheat on their spouses than explore the benefits of the lifestyle openly and honestly?\" Yes, it would be wonderful. I\'ve tried that and it went straight to the divorce attorney. I told my spouse that I wanted to play with others, that I was interested in exploring sex to it\'s fullest, and that I would like her to do it with me. In the moments while she was speechless I also said I\'d welcome singles (male or females) couples or groups of people as long as we both felt okay with it. At that point she definitely told me she was not okay with it. Arguments ensued, I was labeled as uncaring, unloving, homosexual (since I made the male or female comment) and a cheater. The backlash, comments, and dirty looks went on for about 6 months then slowly ebbed but have not vanished as of yet. It\'s been almost six years now. I\'ve been married for 19.
I guess I\'m one of those \'vanilla\' guys you write about however I\'m not sure if I fit that description. I am willing to explore sex therefore don\'t see me as \'vanilla\', merely inexperienced. I know what I have and know there is more out there - for the both of us as well as whomever we play with. If anything, I need to apply the vanilla label to my spouse.
So for these reasons I am cheating. Yes, I admit it. I fit your definition. I also know that I have tried to open her eyes to the possibilities and was denied. Will this be disastrous to me or anyone else? Possibly. I don\'t deny that. I stay with my spouse because of children. It sounds like a cop-out but it is true. I don\'t want them to be hurt from a divorce as I have seen in other families. Yes, I also see what I am doing and what I say seems contradictory. I have three years until my oldest is on his own and then I will re-evaluate my situation. Until that time I will be here for my kids while I am also careful, discreet, and trying to fulfill my desires. You may say my cheating is going to damage them as well. It could. I have no answer for that. I must weigh the circumstances and do what I feel is appropriate and best. Our sexual drives are definitely different. I agree with the person who compared it to bowling - I like sex & she doesn\'t so does that means divorce? Perhaps, I\'ll find out in a few years.
Everyone has their own story, I doubt mine is unique. I ask you do not stereotype and alienate those who have tried to enter the lifestyle but ended up cheating.
Hey, thanks for sharing. We are all friends here so dont feel like you are going to be a target for me or anyone else here...
To address your statement:
**I must weigh the circumstances and do what I feel is appropriate and best.**
Absolutely. It is for YOU to decide how to best conduct your personal relationships. It is also your burden to protect your family from what could very well be a very bad situation.
In your particular case, as in the case of my friend, the spouse is completely unreceptive to your desires. As a husband, I feel that it is my responsibility to support my wife in every aspect of our relationship. I rarely ever say the word \"NO\" to her when it comes to our sex life. Even if I do not agree with everything she says, we can atleast discuss it without feelings of betrayal or jealousy entering in to the conversation. Closed mindedness often leads to situations like yours. That is not to say that I agree with how you have decided to conduct yourself, rather that I can appreciate why some people feel they have no other option.
To me the issue is a simple one: Choose your wife, honor and respect her feelings, and let the lifestyle go until such a time that you are willing, if you are still in that frame of mind at some point, to make permenant changes in your domestic situation....OR.....choose this lifestyle, and risk everything that you hold dear for simple sexual pleasure if it is truly that important to you.
I would also argue that, the people with whom you choose to swing, if they are unaware of your situation, might not appreciate being unwittingly involved in something that could ultimately end up hurting so many people.
This is simply my opinion, based on my experiences in the past 12+ years. There is a little something for everyone in this lifestyle, and I firmly believe that extends to people in your situation too.
Sterotype you, NEVER. Call it like I see it....yes. But I am not in any way attempting to take the moral high ground...I have a beautiful wife who enjoys swinging with me, so it is hard to say how I would feel if I were in your shoes.
Luvbugs!
To address your statement:
**I must weigh the circumstances and do what I feel is appropriate and best.**
Absolutely. It is for YOU to decide how to best conduct your personal relationships. It is also your burden to protect your family from what could very well be a very bad situation.
In your particular case, as in the case of my friend, the spouse is completely unreceptive to your desires. As a husband, I feel that it is my responsibility to support my wife in every aspect of our relationship. I rarely ever say the word \"NO\" to her when it comes to our sex life. Even if I do not agree with everything she says, we can atleast discuss it without feelings of betrayal or jealousy entering in to the conversation. Closed mindedness often leads to situations like yours. That is not to say that I agree with how you have decided to conduct yourself, rather that I can appreciate why some people feel they have no other option.
To me the issue is a simple one: Choose your wife, honor and respect her feelings, and let the lifestyle go until such a time that you are willing, if you are still in that frame of mind at some point, to make permenant changes in your domestic situation....OR.....choose this lifestyle, and risk everything that you hold dear for simple sexual pleasure if it is truly that important to you.
I would also argue that, the people with whom you choose to swing, if they are unaware of your situation, might not appreciate being unwittingly involved in something that could ultimately end up hurting so many people.
This is simply my opinion, based on my experiences in the past 12+ years. There is a little something for everyone in this lifestyle, and I firmly believe that extends to people in your situation too.
Sterotype you, NEVER. Call it like I see it....yes. But I am not in any way attempting to take the moral high ground...I have a beautiful wife who enjoys swinging with me, so it is hard to say how I would feel if I were in your shoes.
Luvbugs!
well if your getting pleasure from the person that is cheatting on someone else then what would it matter to you. you aren\'t the one who has to answer to the other person mate or friend. they do.
poet
poet
I\'d like to take exception with the term \"vanilla\". Vanilla is just another flavor... or taste if you prefer. Those who enter the lifestyle do so for many different reasons. It would be nice for all of us if our reasons or choices were not hemmed in with the necessity to have \"discretion\". (another heavy word). To segregate vanilla as a limiting style is to pass the same judgement we would not welcome on ourselves. My wife and I have spent twenty years enjoying the flavours of sensuality. Sometimes vanilla was our favorite... sometimes rocky road ruled... occasionally hot chocolate, ripe cherry, and even butter rum with dripping hot buttered ripples was right for the moment. I once went to a stag party for a friend and while some of the guys were drooling over the porn movies saying, \"I\'ve never seen anything like that!\"...I just bit my tongue knowing that for my wife and I, it was well... vanilla!
LMAO @ HIGHROAD!
I guess I never looked at it like that...But yes, it is a term used for more people who take a more traditional approach to thier sexual relationships.
Maybe monogamous is more accurate? So monogamous would be to vanilla as rocky road would be to_______________?
Luvbugs!
I guess I never looked at it like that...But yes, it is a term used for more people who take a more traditional approach to thier sexual relationships.
Maybe monogamous is more accurate? So monogamous would be to vanilla as rocky road would be to_______________?
Luvbugs!
ok Diver here goes, well at least you admit your a married cheater and not a true single although i believe your profile was a couple (my fault) so that is a plus in your behalf. but please consider this; You start talking with a couple, they agree to meet , you all get together and things seem to go very well you all end up having a great time. You get dressed and proceed to leave the room, home whatever. As you leave your wife her brother and half your neighborhood is waiting at your car for you to label you a cheater. No problem you say ok then the couple that was willing to share their time and sex with you ends up being supeaned into court for \"allienation of affection\" their kids wonder why no one talks to mommy and daddy any more,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, see its not only you that you are putting in jeapordy but all of us that dont know what is really behind the profile, and please understand we arent bashing you at all to each their own but can you see where it falls on more than just your shoulders?
Now that scenario which is about as far out as it can get seems like neverland to you but what about the real swingers your putting in that position. We ourselves have played seperate at very certain times with very selected people we know and know very well and will not be put in that sort of circumstances because as we all know the wrath of a lover scorned is second to none.
ok off the soapbox
Now that scenario which is about as far out as it can get seems like neverland to you but what about the real swingers your putting in that position. We ourselves have played seperate at very certain times with very selected people we know and know very well and will not be put in that sort of circumstances because as we all know the wrath of a lover scorned is second to none.
ok off the soapbox
OK I tried sitting in the corner and not saying anything but can\'t any more. Both my wife and I were married previously and our respective exes cheated on us. As we looked into the lifestyle we came to one conclusion. It is not the sex that makes it cheating as much as it is the deception. In order to have a clandestine meeting you have to lie to you spouse, not to mention anyone else you know. Even if the wife and I swing separately (which is not often) we still share what is going on and we know about it in advance. It is not the sex that destroys it is the lies and deception. I have a friend of the van.... uhm....non swinger variety who had an affair behind his wife\'s back. Well eventually it ate at him and he fessed up what he had been doing. His wife was not upset about the sex as much as the lies. He stopped lieing and they have live happily since. Of course he also stopped having sex with anyone other than his wife. Guess he got it out of his system.
Well that is our input. We don\'t find swinging cheating and it is something we share. We also find that we don\'t condone cheating and prefer if we do get with singles that they are true singles and not cheating. We just don\'t want to be the cause of the feelings we had when our ex spouses cheated on us. Maybe that is being naive but it is something we strive for. We don\'t condemn those who do cuz we aren\'t in their shoes. We just won\'t get with them.
Well that is our input. We don\'t find swinging cheating and it is something we share. We also find that we don\'t condone cheating and prefer if we do get with singles that they are true singles and not cheating. We just don\'t want to be the cause of the feelings we had when our ex spouses cheated on us. Maybe that is being naive but it is something we strive for. We don\'t condemn those who do cuz we aren\'t in their shoes. We just won\'t get with them.
Luvin luvbugs!
Monogamous is to vanilla as rocky road is to a week at Hedo!
Monogamous is to vanilla as rocky road is to a week at Hedo!
I didn\'t see anyone forcing anything down someones throat or looking down noses. I believe what I said was that we had been hurt by cheating and there fore did have a bit of an issue as a result. Again we don\'t condem we just choose not to be with someone who is cheating. We are not stopping you from finding someone who will just not letting someone who is cheating to force something down on us. I would also point out that swinging has not hurt anyone I know of. Cheating on the other hand lead to causing a lot of pain, financially and emotionally to family members and the children.
I am not advocating forcing my view on anyone, nor do I expect to be forced to accept or condone something that has caused so much pain. If others less fortunate to have someone who will swing too want to take the option to cheat that is their choice and not one I care to be a part of. But I will also not discuss this further as it has turned too grim for me. We are here to have fun so we will go party.
I am not advocating forcing my view on anyone, nor do I expect to be forced to accept or condone something that has caused so much pain. If others less fortunate to have someone who will swing too want to take the option to cheat that is their choice and not one I care to be a part of. But I will also not discuss this further as it has turned too grim for me. We are here to have fun so we will go party.
Cheating = not following the rules of the game. The rules are always subjective to the partners. I guess if you were not allowed lick your partner
WOW! There is one constant that was posted on this string and that is \"sex\". Has anyone ever got together with another couple without having sex? I have been married and in the lifestyle and now a single male in the lifestyle. I have met many couples and women that are very good friends and not had sex.
The lifestyle is about trust and fiendship. I have gone to movies with wives of other men because he didn\'t like the movie. I didn\'t bang her there in the theatre. In fact that night I didn\'t do anything sexual with her.
Bringing up sex is part of the reason \"vanilla\" people don\'t understand it. This lifestyle of swinging is a huge network of friends who decide to share everything, even lust. Now if anyone wants to stand up and say this is a love thing, SIT DOWN!!! The sex I have had in this lifestyle is pure lust in the rawest form. I loved my wife and gave her everything I had. Love takes time and work. Sometimes it is not fun and other times it is the truest form of bliss but in no way is having sex with another woman, man, or couple love. If you take a vanilla person and explain to them that sex and love are not the same. (This will take aprox 700 years because most people don\'t understand that) and get them to understand it, a true friend will emerge.
I guess what I am saying is I see the word swinging as a true definition of friend. You can trust a person and have sex with them for pleasure but you are not going to live with them, wipe their ass when they can\'t, and be by there side when all others have left. That is what love is for.
Now for all this to say, if 2 friends get together and have sex even though one or both is married, does it really matter? When you say cheating, are the people in search of love? Or just good sex? I don\'t mean to demean sex but come on, it should come to all long time married individuals that love is not based on sex and lust does not always lead to love. So when someone is looking for some good sex from a friend and goes back to their spouse and is by there side and gives them all they got, I Can\'t hang that person.
Just my thoughts...
The lifestyle is about trust and fiendship. I have gone to movies with wives of other men because he didn\'t like the movie. I didn\'t bang her there in the theatre. In fact that night I didn\'t do anything sexual with her.
Bringing up sex is part of the reason \"vanilla\" people don\'t understand it. This lifestyle of swinging is a huge network of friends who decide to share everything, even lust. Now if anyone wants to stand up and say this is a love thing, SIT DOWN!!! The sex I have had in this lifestyle is pure lust in the rawest form. I loved my wife and gave her everything I had. Love takes time and work. Sometimes it is not fun and other times it is the truest form of bliss but in no way is having sex with another woman, man, or couple love. If you take a vanilla person and explain to them that sex and love are not the same. (This will take aprox 700 years because most people don\'t understand that) and get them to understand it, a true friend will emerge.
I guess what I am saying is I see the word swinging as a true definition of friend. You can trust a person and have sex with them for pleasure but you are not going to live with them, wipe their ass when they can\'t, and be by there side when all others have left. That is what love is for.
Now for all this to say, if 2 friends get together and have sex even though one or both is married, does it really matter? When you say cheating, are the people in search of love? Or just good sex? I don\'t mean to demean sex but come on, it should come to all long time married individuals that love is not based on sex and lust does not always lead to love. So when someone is looking for some good sex from a friend and goes back to their spouse and is by there side and gives them all they got, I Can\'t hang that person.
Just my thoughts...
Oops I forgot one thing... Jelousy
This is a feeling someone gets when they think they are going to lose something that might hurt them. A loved one leaving is a hrt to the loser so the feelings overwhelm the person and stupid crap happens. But one thing that does not happen is communication. Communication is the only thing that trumps Jelousy...
This is a feeling someone gets when they think they are going to lose something that might hurt them. A loved one leaving is a hrt to the loser so the feelings overwhelm the person and stupid crap happens. But one thing that does not happen is communication. Communication is the only thing that trumps Jelousy...
Whatever.....Come back to earth......You are probably a single male now because you told your wife that love = wiping her ass. Not exactly cool. If it is like you explained then you would hook up with a special needs person because some of them need their ass wiped, but you would then do their sister. You are pretty much a pervert to love (I mean ass wipe) somebody and then just fuck anything for lust value.
Our reply to this thread is simple......\"If you ainte sneekin, you ainte cheatin\" and of course \"if your sneekin , your cheatin\"................Seems to work really well for us..............................
And now for the shallow and very shortminded... Go ahead SALTY2325... Unfortunatly people like SALTY2325 who associated what I said as love = ass wiping are just as ignorant as \"vanilla\" people. And for anyone who really cares, I went through a divorce because she liked to party every night and not commit to family. Again like anyone cares but just so SALTY2325 can understand. (I also typed this slow...)
All I can say is bravo to those who admit they are cheaters. If you can live with yourself for that and if your playmates know your situation, then I guess that\'s what counts. It would be even better if your spouse were in the loop, but I guess this isn\'t a perfect world. We avoid cheaters, per sey, but realize that there are those out there who don\'t mind playing with them. For us, it\'s just not what swinging is about and we don\'t want to be part of anybody getting hurt. And yes, sooner or later, someone will get hurt.
**Bottom line here is can we just stop all the finger pointing, labeling, and judging? Morals are a personal thing and eveyone is entitled to theirs and I\'m of the mind set...don\'t force yours down my throat and I won\'t force mind down yours.**
Wrong. No one is interested in passing judgement here. Simply stating the facts as they are.
Also, I think that some of us have returned to the cheating vs swingnig morality issue that we agreed earlier was NOT the intended direction this thread was going in. The issue IS a moral one, as someone pointed out. However it isnt whether or not CHEATING is the same as SWINGING.
Since the thread has been joined by so many other now (AND I THANK YOU GUYS FOR STEPPING UP AND SHARING!) several differing points of view have emerged.
Some \"vanilla\" or traditional people attempt to convince their mates to swing (MALE OR FEMALE) and for whatever eason that partner says NO. That person can not accept this answer for whatever reason, and decides it is worth risking everything they hold dear to swing.
We have explored that.
On the other hand, other \"vanilla\" people HAVE NEVER, AND WOULD NEVER EVEN ATTEMPT TO BROACH THE SUBJECT TO THEIR MATES. For fear of hearing NO, for fear of divorce...whatever...These same people, as one of our single gentleman pointed out...would look down upon us and label us sinners for being \"SWINGERS\" and all that they quite incorrectly feel that entails, and then in the same breath, go out and CHEAT on their mates. (I know one where she cheated on her husband with the pasteur of their church!)
Cheating is actually more accpetable than swinging to a LOT of \"vanilla\" people. To share their mate, agree on the format, and practice an open dialogue about it is unthinkable.
To cheat is not.
>>TO ADDRESS THE CHEATING SWINGER ISSUE AGAIN<<
This was never meant to single out you single guys out there, and I am not going to defend this post, or our stand on it. If you have read our profile, you should understand that we date single men and women almost exclusively! We just prefer to know the TRUTH about your situation, and beleive it or not, in this lifestyle...that is a tall order.
As someone else said, that is a choice each of you has to make. We would prefer to know the truth about your situation so that we can decide to say NO for fear of creating hurt feelings and contributing to the end of a relationship that we are not even a part of. My mind will not allow me to justify what my heart knows to be just plain wrong.
Luvbugs!
Wrong. No one is interested in passing judgement here. Simply stating the facts as they are.
Also, I think that some of us have returned to the cheating vs swingnig morality issue that we agreed earlier was NOT the intended direction this thread was going in. The issue IS a moral one, as someone pointed out. However it isnt whether or not CHEATING is the same as SWINGING.
Since the thread has been joined by so many other now (AND I THANK YOU GUYS FOR STEPPING UP AND SHARING!) several differing points of view have emerged.
Some \"vanilla\" or traditional people attempt to convince their mates to swing (MALE OR FEMALE) and for whatever eason that partner says NO. That person can not accept this answer for whatever reason, and decides it is worth risking everything they hold dear to swing.
We have explored that.
On the other hand, other \"vanilla\" people HAVE NEVER, AND WOULD NEVER EVEN ATTEMPT TO BROACH THE SUBJECT TO THEIR MATES. For fear of hearing NO, for fear of divorce...whatever...These same people, as one of our single gentleman pointed out...would look down upon us and label us sinners for being \"SWINGERS\" and all that they quite incorrectly feel that entails, and then in the same breath, go out and CHEAT on their mates. (I know one where she cheated on her husband with the pasteur of their church!)
Cheating is actually more accpetable than swinging to a LOT of \"vanilla\" people. To share their mate, agree on the format, and practice an open dialogue about it is unthinkable.
To cheat is not.
>>TO ADDRESS THE CHEATING SWINGER ISSUE AGAIN<<
This was never meant to single out you single guys out there, and I am not going to defend this post, or our stand on it. If you have read our profile, you should understand that we date single men and women almost exclusively! We just prefer to know the TRUTH about your situation, and beleive it or not, in this lifestyle...that is a tall order.
As someone else said, that is a choice each of you has to make. We would prefer to know the truth about your situation so that we can decide to say NO for fear of creating hurt feelings and contributing to the end of a relationship that we are not even a part of. My mind will not allow me to justify what my heart knows to be just plain wrong.
Luvbugs!
we find it rather interesting that man or woman feels the desire to be with others and would risk losing their family for extramarital sex . when all you have to do if realize that that open communication with your spouse is all you need . we do not play alone and that due to the fact we are spicing up our sex life, not mine or hers we do it together because it brings us closer in alot of ways. if the day comes when one or both of us are no longer turned on by seeing the other with someone else , or playing just doesnt feel right , we will stop! lets face it people will always be attracted to others no matter how perfect your marrige seems so why not explore that together and when you look back on it years from now youll be able to say man we had alot of fun and wouldnt change a thing .
p.s. the divorce rate for swingers is about 3/4 less than that of vanilla couples! woder why?
Hobie n Amy
p.s. the divorce rate for swingers is about 3/4 less than that of vanilla couples! woder why?
Hobie n Amy
I\'ve tried to avoid jumping in to this thread, but I can\'t contain myself any longer...
I recently discontinued my membership on another site, due to repeated harassment
from some members there. Apparently, this small group of people decided to appoint
themselves arbiters of morality and declare that all solo men were evil, but those of
us who are married, but do not play with our wives are Satan\'s Spawn.
Before anyone jumps to a conclusion, my spouse has full knowledge, and has given
her consent for me to play alone. Those people who have seen me (and her) on the
video chats can verify that she knows, and approves.
On this other site (which shall remain nameless) I\'ve been labeled with every
imaginable tag, from \"cheater\" to \"@$$hole\" and everything in between because
we do not play together. I bet some of the people reading this post automatically
assumed that I was somehow \"cheating\" because I am married but play alone.
Technically, anyone who has any form of sexual contact with a person that is not
his or her spouse, is cheating. The wedding vows say so.
However, I personally agree with those who have written that if the spouse has
full knowledge, whether or not they participate, it is not cheating. The very concept
of cheating has a dishonest connotation to it, which has no place in any form of
committed relationship. So, I play alone, with my wife\'s permission, because she
chooses to not play, and I refuse to force her to do so.
Having said that, I hope no one here automatically thinks of everyone who plays
without their spouse, as a cheater... Take the time to find out what the real circumstances
are before making decisions, and play safely...
Whew~!!!
I recently discontinued my membership on another site, due to repeated harassment
from some members there. Apparently, this small group of people decided to appoint
themselves arbiters of morality and declare that all solo men were evil, but those of
us who are married, but do not play with our wives are Satan\'s Spawn.
Before anyone jumps to a conclusion, my spouse has full knowledge, and has given
her consent for me to play alone. Those people who have seen me (and her) on the
video chats can verify that she knows, and approves.
On this other site (which shall remain nameless) I\'ve been labeled with every
imaginable tag, from \"cheater\" to \"@$$hole\" and everything in between because
we do not play together. I bet some of the people reading this post automatically
assumed that I was somehow \"cheating\" because I am married but play alone.
Technically, anyone who has any form of sexual contact with a person that is not
his or her spouse, is cheating. The wedding vows say so.
However, I personally agree with those who have written that if the spouse has
full knowledge, whether or not they participate, it is not cheating. The very concept
of cheating has a dishonest connotation to it, which has no place in any form of
committed relationship. So, I play alone, with my wife\'s permission, because she
chooses to not play, and I refuse to force her to do so.
Having said that, I hope no one here automatically thinks of everyone who plays
without their spouse, as a cheater... Take the time to find out what the real circumstances
are before making decisions, and play safely...
Whew~!!!
AEGIS>>> Well said (sir!). It IS easy to assume that single men who are playing with permission are in fact liars, and are actually cheating. That\'s because a large percentage of them actually ARE cheating, and ruin it for the ones who are not.
It must be very challenging convincing others of your sincerity, even with your wife\'s support. I know that we would find it difficult to believe that the situation was exactly as you claimed it was. We may have even decided to pass simply because we might not have wanted to get mixed up in something that seemed like it could become volitile at any point.
Sorry to hear about the other website. That sucks.
Luvbugs!
It must be very challenging convincing others of your sincerity, even with your wife\'s support. I know that we would find it difficult to believe that the situation was exactly as you claimed it was. We may have even decided to pass simply because we might not have wanted to get mixed up in something that seemed like it could become volitile at any point.
Sorry to hear about the other website. That sucks.
Luvbugs!