Swingers on Swingular - Swingers Forum

this was sent to me in a regular e-mail and i thought i would pass it on
Phil

FOR THE FEW WHO DON'T KNOW:

Red Skelton was a movie star and comedian on television back in the 1950s. He created a number of characters, and his show was watched by Millions. He did this on his show one evening--back when shows were Live .......Here is one of his shows....
Very important that you listen to the very end!! Eerie!

Take a moment and listen to it (from 1969). How would he have known That this is what is happening?
Click on the link , and turn your sound on.
http://patriotfiles.org/Pledge.htm

Hard for it to be "for ALL" if you've got a few hundred thousand atheists running around the place and the whole thing is only for those who believe in God. I believe in God. I also believe in "liberty and justice for ALL." And I think God doesn't have a problem with the pledge either way, but when you ask atheists to swear allegiance to a god, they understandably have a problem with THAT. And when you use the capital G-word, it begs the obvious question: WHICH god and WHOSE god? I think amending the pledge to include "under God" was a mistake...an ideologically driven mistake, which are usually the worst kind. Americans make a huge mistake when they equate God and country the way we so often do nowadays. It's a byproduct of the Cold War, where we stood against the "godless communists" as the bastion of freedom around the world. Liberty, freedom, and God are not inseparable. In fact, God annointed tyrants and despots for 2 thousand years if we are to believe in the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition. The Judeo-Christian God endorsed slavery and demands obedience and submission. (not saying this is a good or bad thing, just a religious fact) He considers women to be men's inferiors and demands that they be subservient and obedient to their husbands, fathers, and brothers. His spokesman, Paul, commanded women not to speak in the public assembly even to ask a question, but rather to ask the question humbly of their own husbands at home in private. He said, "I will not SUFFER a woman to teach." Is THIS liberty? Is this equality and justice FOR ALL?

Are we "under God," or do we stand for "liberty and justice for all?" Because we cannot do both.

Jesus Christ (whom Christians believe to be God) said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's." Apparently, separation of church and state was something even HE endorsed. I guess he changed his mind after 2,000 years of despotic kings in Jerusalem who habitually abused the power granted them by God.

Personally, I think the Pledge of Allegiance in its current form (with "under God") is contradictory of itself. It would be fine with me if they take it out.

you are not pledging to God you are pledging to a nation that believes in God as a whole.that does not mean everybody has to believe in God.whether a person believes or not they can still pledge allegience to the country.
Phil

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892

I pledge allegiance to my the
Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1923

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1924

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
June 14, 1954

how many people bitched about putting "under God" in 1954?
The only problem I see in this Country, is people who would never fight for this Country sure have alot to bitch about....So bitch about something worth while, like pregnant women who smoke, or maybe just shut the fuck up!

What cracks me up is when I hear an atheist say "God dammit!" or "Oh my God!" or things along those lines. And most do it in my experience. Of course, a pledge of allegiance is a bit more serious of a thing to consider carefully than a curse phrase. I've even heard them say "God bless you," when someone sneezes. Now that there's funny...I don't care who you are!

i do believe the majority of people in the USA believe in GOD.just because a few non believers want to sue a school system to stop prayer,or sue the government to take the word God off the money does not change what the majority think.Hell even Wal~Mart went back to saying merry christmas and like things this year.I think a vote should be taken as far as removing the word God from any thing and majority rules.just believing in God is not necessarily religious,just like believing in the death penalty dose not make one a murderer.ok enough for now PHIL

Ok, just adding my $.02 in.... "Under God", just means that we are all UNDER the protection of someone's version of "GOD", at least in my book.

And as one who does not necessarily believe in "God", I will say that taking a look at the broader meaning of "God" to the whole world might be a more reasonable way to look at it.

In taking a look at most religions, Christianity, Buddhism, Paganism, or what ever you are a believer in...MOST RELIGIONS HAVE A SINGLE ENTITY FOR THEM TO WORSHIP. Is this not "God" to that persons' religion? Does "God" only have one name and one religion? If he/she is what I was taught as a child, does he/she not protect ALL peoples of the earth?, regardless of race, creed, color, religion, size, age, physical condition, ethniticity, or any thing else we have to be so correct about?????

In the Catholic religion, there are many saints to help "God". Basically, this is making them demi-gods. Against the rules in most bibles.... but no one bashes them for their beliefs. Some only believe in the New Testament, some only in the old, and some in both. Some religions have a differently written 'bible' or have added things onto it, such as the Mormons have. Jehovah's Witnesses, do not believe in Jesus, 1/3 of what makes GOD GOD in Christianity. Does that mean he is less of a 'God' to them? That does mean they do not believe in a "God" of some sort? Is only one religion the right religion?

I think that by not allowing things like UNDER GOD, that are part of the fabric of this country's cloth, made of many different religions, ethnic backgrounds and beliefs, we are doing a disservice to EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY! Our money has "IN GOD WE TRUST" written on it. Should we change that too? So long as it does not do physical or mental harm to anyone, leave it be. This country was started by peoples that wanted freedoms that they could not get in their countries, a freedom to believe in what and WHO they wanted to believe in. Are we forgetting that or willing to give it up so as not "offend" others who do not believe as you do? Where do our freedoms go then.

What is happening to our rights as natural-born citizens of this country? Are we so afraid to upset someone else or have them think we do not agree with their beliefs that we are willing to tear holes in the cloth that holds us together as country? We, as CITIZENS of this country have the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY to RESPECT others' beliefs and cultures. That does not mean we have to drop our own culture and beliefs, to be so 'Politically Correct" that we loose what this country means to us. It does not mean we have agree or even like it. We have forgotten what RESPECT means.

This is the definition of RESPECT I am talking about...Straight from Dictionary.com......re

Don
Have to say hit the nail on the head this time. mo

The number of people that have no idea of what they are saying when they mouth the words of the pledge is pitiful. While they get all hot and bothered over it being

you know what if your an atheist great good for you... because you live in a country that allows people of different religous opinions....dont ask the masses to say ohhhhh we dont want to offend you mr minority...you know what if you dont like the fucking pledge of allegance dont sing it......if you dont like in god we trust give me your money.....if you dont like it go fuck yourself for all i care...your in the minority....and when your the majority...tell me to go fuck myself...i love democracy

Randa,

I'm in the minority. I'm agnostic. So may I tell you to go fuck yourself?

I suppose I could, but it wouldn't be very nice. Nor would it be respectful of *your* beliefs.

Most of us who do not believe in god only ask one thing, be as respectful of our beliefs as we are of yours. And yes, not believing in god is a belief, just as your having faith there is one is your belief.

I don't say the pledge of allegience. That's my choice. When I was a Girl Scout leader, my troops participated in numerous flag ceremonies. I didn't make a fuss over the pledge. I just silently mouthed the words out of respect for those who do believe in "One nation under God." I never made it known that what was being said did not apply to me. I never made a fuss.

My co-leader on the other hand was a religious type and at the beginning of our meetings and field trips often said a prayer. She involved the whole troop. I did step in there as Girl Scouts is non-demoninational and she was pushing her beliefs on others. You cannot do that in this organization. She eventually left because in her mind, Girl Scouts was a godless, lesbian loving group set out to destroy the faith of young girls and turn them all gay. *shrug* Whatever.

It's not about your faith or another's lack thereof. It's about respect. Give it and you'll get it in return.

Ali

I usually just sit back and get a good laugh at some of these posts. But, the way i look at it, is plain and simple, don't mess with the U.S. ofA.! Our forefathers regardless of who they believe or what they believed in, fought for what rights that u and i as American citizens are slowly losing, due to the fact of our "open" door policy of come to the promised land, live free, live happy. They are the ones who are crying about what is a BIG part of our American history, and dont want to live by it. If u dont like the way we run things in our country go back to where you came from!

I will stand by anyone and everyone willing to step up and protect our constitution, our freedom and most importantly our FLAG. Yes, i agree there are alot of things that go on within this country that should not, and some of you have made some very good points, but lets not all go and let people destroy what my ancestors as well as many more have fought for and died for. We need to stand TALL, STAND PROUD and STAND UNITED

If you don't like it then get outta here!
Like Toby says, "We'll put a boot in your ass" when u mess with the U.S. Of A.

Proud To Be An AMERICAN!!!!

Kika, unless you are a Native American, then I suggest YOU pack your bags and go back to wherever it is you and yours came from. Unless one is NA, you are an immigrant here.

Our founding fathers and their succesors decimated the people who lived here first. All in the name of their God and their beliefs. America also allowed the wholesale of human beings to be kept as slaves. Just one more shining example of being a wonderful American, eh?

Did God say anywhere to go out and literally destroy a nation and it's peoples so that we could live there and then proclaim oursleves superior to all others? I think not. That was man. Man and his ego.

Proud to be an American? Hell no. Not with all the bullshit our government pulls. I'm rather ashamed to say that we have a nation of people who are too lazy to stand up and make a change in how things are.

Instead, Americans sit back and boast about how wonderful and enlightened we are while our leaders send our military out to rape other nations. We sit back and boast about how wonderful our corrupt government is. When other nations call us on our acts of aggression, lies, and misdeeds, we simply say that they are backwards and jealous.

We label all those of the Muslim faith as terrorists. We propogate a racist mentality and then cannot figure out why why have so many racial problems. We say that they'd be solved if *those* people just went back to wherever they came from.

I am ashamed of what this country has become. We have the potential to do so much more. To really be a good example. And yet we can't manage to rise to the occasion. I find it difficult to have pride in being an American when we fail so monumentally in so many areas.

Ali

To some of you,
Not trying to pick, but isn't what your saying liberty and justice for ME?
I am so sick of people bitching about my great country, why don't you complainers go put in for citizenship in another country and let them choose everything for you.
I think you have gotten so caught up in yourself you forget how much worse off you could have it. Go live in a third world country and hope you can find enough food to survive, that's if you survive the market square. Go see how many options you have of brands to buy, channels to watch, schools to attend, jobs to apply for etc. etc.
Do you like freedom? If not, there's the door don't let it hit you in your ass on the way out.
If you like your freedoms?, to choose, to procreate, to own land, to an education, to a job, (I could go on and on), then stop your fucking bitching and sit down.
I think that you have missed the point, we live in a country so great that you can openly harass, bitch, poke fun at and protest your own government officials, you think you could get away with that in every corner of the globe? You can get on a public forum and talk MAD shit about your country and you don't have to worry about someone hauling your fucking ass off to some horrible prison some where to rot until you die, and that's if they don't hang your treasonous fucking ass.
I think you have more freedom then you have brains.
Jesus Christ! (no pun intended.)

Just my 2 cents.

-Me

Oh good grief. No, I am not a Native American.

Angry? Bitter? Only on one subject and that is not even remotely related to the topic at hand and has no bearing on my post or my beliefs in this country.

This nation is full of racists and bigots. Muslims are towel heads. Hispanics are Spics. Asians are Gooks. People of other ethnicities or cultures are referred to as *those* people. We (and when I use we and you it is a general term, not pointing fingers at any one person) Those who do not believe in another's god are called horrible names as well.

Our country has the potential to do so much. Yet we do so little. Destination of choice? Yes and no. Many other countries have high immigration rates and waiting lists to get in.

We have done a lot of good things. We will continue to do them. But we could do more. Even in our own country people die of starvation. Children go to bed hungry. Our health care is in shambles. Mental health care is even worse.

Why when we have the potential for so much do we do so little?

Military. There are some damn good soldiers out there. My sister is one of those who serve our country and I am VERY proud of her. My brother in law also serves and I am proud as hell of him. We have many good people serving us. Yet we also have soldiers who are convicted of some really horrible crimes against those they have been sent to help. I cannot be proud or supportive of them.

I think Bush lied in order to go to Iraq. Can I prove it? No. But can you prove he didn't? I don't think so.

You said: I don

Hiding what?

I do not believe in god. Yes, I once did. I no longer do. It's that simple. How is that hiding?

I'm not racist or bigoted. I do not care about color, ethnicity, culture. I look at what is inside. How a person is, who they are. If they are decent, honest, honorable, all the good things one would want to find in a person.

I'm not saying that America is all bad. We do have many wonderful qualities. Many amazing freedoms. But we aren't the only nation that has these things. We are not the only nation with a democracy. We are not the best thing since sliced bread. Our nation has flaws. We have corrupt politicians on every level. We have a huge drug and crime problem. We have a disparity between classes and incomes. We have people living in places that most would consider akin to thirld world countries.

I'm just tired of the chest beating "I'm an American" hear me roar mentality. Yes, we are pretty good. But we aren't the best in everything. Many other countries and cultures could teach us a thing or two.

I'm a bit tired of the pack your chit and get out if you don't like it line of thinking. Guess what? I don't have to like certain things. Nor does anyone else. I have that right. As does every other citizen.

As pointed out earlier, we have these freedoms, these rights. So why is it that anyone who espouses disatisfaction with how things are is told to leave and go somewhere else?

Kinda silly isn't it?

Ali

Again, using the terms we or you is in general. Not finger pointing at anyone specific.

So if I am not hiding from god, then who or what am I hiding from?

Ali

Only in a country as great as ours can you randomly change your mind to believe, not to believe, this God that God, ALA, the Devil, Ozzy Osbourne, Buddha, etc.
That's all I am saying.
I was merely stating you also have the freedom to leave anytime it gets to be too much for you, Savvy?
Really not many places would give you the opportunity to have a choice in whether or not they added or excluded the word GOD in anything, period.
-Me

After 20 years in the military this is some funny shit. Everyone just needs to get laid.

to pet;too many people come to America and want all of America to change to their way.they think we should all start talking their language and refuse to learn english.it is almost always with them well in canada we did it this way(just an example).so it is to those folks that i say speak english or get the fuck out and we do not care how they do it there.if it worked so well why do they leave their homeland to come here?think about it would you go to say poland and expect them all to talk english and do things your way?as far as there being bad people in military so what.if you take any group of people you will have bad ones including cops,clergy and agnostics
to don would it be ok to change your name to shithead?i don't think it really matters what you call him God and allah are all together different.no one wants to have others change their name.
my posting this wasn't supposed to cause a religious debate i just thought it was good that in 1969 when it came out that Mr Skelton would bring up the debate of taking God out of it .
the constitution says nothing about God it talks of organized religion,say that religion shall not have the power to rule this new country.
Phil

I apologize but I have not had the time to read this entire thread. I don't have the time unfortunately. One thing that JEFFINGERSAUL said I needed to comment on....The US of A is not a Christian nation nor were all the founding fathers particularly good Christians. The founding fathers were a product of the enlightenment which had just struggled and continued to struggle with the church on a whole gamut of subjects. The most obvious example was Thomas Paine the author of the pamphlet "Common Sense" written in 1776 which historians believe provided the intellectual underpinnings and the early momentum that led to the American Revolution. Well, Thomas Paine, at best, could be described as a deist and is as close to an atheist as you cold be at the time. He was so non-god fearing that later generations of leaders and those who wrote histories were kind of embarrassed so they wrote him out of the history and where that was not possible they just didn't talk about his religious affiliation. I won't go into it but lots of the founding fathers had problems with religion. I must also point out that you have to discriminate between public speaking and private messages. Not everyone was a product of the enlightenment like the founding fathers so what they said in public was not always how they felt in private. One very public statement that the founding fathers did make was contained in the very first treaty the US of A concluded with a foreign power which was negotiated by the executive and ratified by the Senate on June 10, 1797. This is the "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary". In Article 11 it states:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

If the founding fathers wanted to send a clear message to future generations about what they believed, I cannot think of many better ways. I am sure some will ask "Why not put it in the Declaration of Independence?". The answer to that would be that the founding fathers were looking for unity and any and all support they could muster at that time. On something like a treaty they could speak much more clearly because the text would not be widely read and interpreted by the masses although the educated and the future government leaders would get the message.

I am off to Bonnaroo so I will not be able to see the response to this until next Tuesday. I still felt compelled to respond because some politicians and religious leaders have attempted to rewrite history in direct contravention the hopes and wishes of the founding fathers and tried to paint the US of A as a "Christian Nation" and that the government was a bunch of devout christians on a devine mission. Well, its not true. These christians, I believe, even know its not true. They just need their revision to achieve their own policy goals and they are not above lying to do that.

Tim

where do people get the info that the founding fathers were not into religion and/or atheist?

Jeff-

No I don't know the answer. I'm not playing, what am I hiding? Enlighten me. Please.

Ali

Highway,

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to learn another language? Prior to age 5, it can be done quite easily. As a person ages, it becomes more and more difficult. Depending on the language, it can take a minimum of 5 years to become fluent. It is not that easy. Many families are working several jobs in order to have basic living needs met. Not much time left for ESL classes.

It's very easy for those who are not a minority to sit back and enjoy the privledge of being white and American.

Ali

Well I am trying to pick on you.

You put it out there and claimed I was hiding. What am I hiding? Say it or email it to me. I really would like to know what it is you think I am hiding.

Ali

seems to me there are those that at least make an effort to learn english and those that don't even try.why is it that the viets came here and tried to learn and most do speak english now.no one would expect a person to fluent instantly but make the effort cause i will not learn their language
Phil

Oh hell no Goodgenes. They just wiped them out. Many tribes with a rich history and culture were obliterated.

Assimilate? HAHAHA Much easier to kill them. Why bother? They were godless heathens. Savages. Not even human to some. Why should there be an attempt to learn and understand?

This is what I referred to in an earlier post. Those who came here in search of religious freedom, freedom from tyranny turned around and did far worse than what they were fleeing.

Our nation was not founded with a faith in god. It was founded in tyranny and opression.
I struggle with being a proud American when those before me founded this nation on the lives of others...

Ali

I cannot say whether the puritans learn to speak the language of the indians nor can i say they expected the indians to learn their language.but what i do know isthat they found some common ground and learned to communicate with each other.back to my original if you went to another country would you expect them to learn english?or would you try to learn at least a few phrases to get you by for your visit or if you are moving there till you can learn more.if you want a first hand observation go stay in the southwest by the mexican border or feelfree to come down here to florida.i work with a haitian and even he gets mad that a lot of hispanics don't learn english.
Phil

But many DO learn the language here.

It may not happen overnight, but many do. It's not wasy though. Hit up your friend google and do some research into how long it takes to learn basic English. Learn how long it takes to become fluent. Learn which languages are the most difficult to learn.

Then realize that many who come here from impoverished lives didn't even have a basic education in their homeland. How easily can one learn to conjugate verbs when one does not even know what the hell a verb is?

Many immigrant families are so busy working to provide basics we take for granted that having the time for an ESL class in near impossible.

ESL teachers are limited. Volunteers are needed. So how about those who want to complain about those foreigners not learning *our* language go out and actually help teach ESL classes?

My aunt came over illegaly when I was a little girl. She brought her children with her - 5 of them - to make a better life for them and for herself. She busted her ass to provide a home, food, education for her kids. She met and married my uncle and together they raised her kids and one they had together. She became a citizen as did her kids.

All of their kids have graduated, gone on to get college educations and are making a difference in their communities and back in Mexico.

Members of my family are *those* people that are looked down upon. The funny thing is, my family members are far more successful and educated than many of those who look at them and think of them in horrible racist terms.

Becoming the people they have has not been easy. They've had a very hard road. They've faced a lot of bigotry and cruelty. They still do.

White privledge is one of the most narrow minded ways of existing. Step out of your comfort zone. Educate yourself before you judge others.

Highway, could you leave your home today, with nothing more than the clothes on your back, a few dollars - if you were llucky - in your pocket, move somewhere where you did not know the language, culture, traditions and be fully functioning in your new life within mere months? I highly doubt it.

Racism, classism, bigotry is alive and well here in the good old USA.

Ali

As long as we keep believing in this "what is right and wrong" mentality, we will continue to go in circles. Who decides what right and wrong are? What was right centuries ago is wrong today. Right and wrong are always relative to whose doing the judging. Again, who decides? What is right for one is not necessarily what's right for another, and what was right thousands of years ago may not be what is right for today's society. Instead of judging things as being "right" or "wrong", why don't we base our morality on "what works" in relation to what we as a society are trying to become. I think that most would agree that what we want as human beings is peace, harmony, happiness, and joy. Judging everything and everyone as "right or wrong" is not "what works" if those things are what we want.

Your path to peace, harmony, happiness, and joy is just that. YOUR path. If it works for you .... Great! That doesn't make someone else's path wrong. When we start judging others as being wrong, it all get's f...ked up. We have been doing this since the beginnining of our existence on this Earth. We decide what is right and wrong based on our beliefs. Then we form our little groups and try to force our beliefs on everybody else. These become BIG groups, and all of a sudden, we are judging and, eventually, killing others because their beliefs are not ours. This is INSANE.

I am still in the process of discovering "what works." I don't yet know the perfect answer. I'm not even sure that there is a perfect answer. We are all going to eventually get to the same place. The path we choose doesn't matter. What matters is that we get to CHOOSE. Instead of enjoying our path and whatever or whoever we encounter along the way, we spend all our time making others "wrong" because of their choices. The joy is in the choosing. "What works" is enjoying the choices, letting others enjoy their's, and EVERYONE doing that from a place of love, not fear.

Every religion in the world has the same goal ....... truth, love, and joy. Does it matter how we get it? Is there a right and a wrong way? I don't think so! I believe that the purpose of life is to create and experience every path to JOY. The beautiful part is that the paths are infinite. There will always be a new and different one to travel.

I've been reading, with some interest, the pontifications and protestations on the issues of this post. Some talk about morals some about duty some about apothy of people. I 'll ask: What is worals? Are swingers moral if society finds it averant? Is this country based on good Christian principals? Is this current government or administration trying to turn this country into a theocracy? This ccountry was founded so that everyone should have the right to live their life in their own manner, to be free to pursue whatever they wish so long as it does not interfere with others rights and liberties, and to be happy in those rights.

As for religion, here I go again quoting the father of our constitution, Thomas Jefferson said; "I have recently been examining all known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

God's be damned, government be damned as well and if we do nothing to oppose bad government we are not patriotic, we are fools who will watch our country drown in it's own bile.. We can talk forever about what is and is not good but until we live what is good and moral, (morality is that principle which basically says "do no harm" like the doctors pledge) but until we apply true morality to our own lives and speak boldly to government which rules in fear and demogogery and to business which thinks that God is a dollar or a yen or any other form of currency, we will be be responsible for our own plight....

Just a thought or two... Since we do not study history or at least it's tennons we will be forced to repeat the mistakes made before....

Jeff

I didn't really say that all paths lead to the same place. What I said was that eventually we are all going to the same place. That place is not in our physical reality as we know it. You can call that place heaven, nirvanna, pure consciousness, pure intelligence, or whatever you choose to call it. You can even call it God. " There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Within our physical reality, we take many paths because we get to choose. And yes, you are right, they all do not lead to the same place. BUT ........ eventually the physical reality will end. Notice I didn't say die. Our consciousness, spirit, soul, whatever you want to label it, is eternal and part of a much larger thing. A thing much too large for us to understand. We don't need to understand it. If we understood it completely, the game (for lack of a better word) would be over. You don't actually think that this world is "All of It", do you?

As to your comments about sex with children, murder, assaults, theft, etc., I must remind you that I said our choices must come from a place of love, not fear. No one would do these things if we all came from that place. We DO all come from that place actually. We just don't know it. Think about it. If we all knew that we are One, would anyone do those things? We would be doing them to ourselves!

This is my fuckin hero:

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View all of his enlightening videos here: http://www.liveleak.com/browse?user=patcondell

ali you act like those that come here are coming against their will.if i was planning on going some where else to live then yes i believe i would be just fine,as i would start learning the language before i went.the example of your family points out what i am saying they came here they learned the language and they got ahead.i don't see so many working more than one job down here in florida.i have seen crimes committed.i've seen hispanics involved in accidents and not have insurance.it was on the news the other day about a hispanic store being busted for selling prescription drugs problem was it was not a pharmacy.they were also busted for selling SS numbers.authorities found one number that over 100 people were using.sounds like criminals to me.again my point they come to the country and don't want to do the right thing they want to do it their way.i do not blame anyone for wanting to come here but adapt to our customs don't try to make us adapt to yours.
Phil

TR

That was cool.

Does it really matter how it all came to be? Evolution, Adam and Eve, or even a monkey fucking a pig........ does it matter? Intelligent design is a tricky thing. LOL

Tr

I'm not about to get into that argument, but do you really think that there is not some kind of intelligence or consciousness behind all of this?

Here's something to keep your mind occupied LOL.
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Won

when i started this thread it was supposed to be about Red Skelton foretelling the future.i did not think it would evolve into a do you or not believe in God.but oh well y'all have a great night.
Phil

I sense a bit of frustration with not being able to control what others do.

I agree with Don that the flow of conversation is what makes it so interesting and alive.

The real world is always far more amazing and rewarding than the one we imagine should exist.

Luvpaths

maybe, instead of us creating God .......... God is experiencing ITSELF through us.

But I like yours too.

a bit of frustration with who? i don't care where the thread goes i am just saying why i posted it
Phil

People who believe i ghosts or extra-terrestrials don't bother me in the least. I haven't seen either. But I don't rule out the possibilities since so many folks have compelling claims of personal experience. Same thing with God. I haven't personally been addressed from a burning bush, bolt of lighting and booming voice from the sky, or a personal appearance from Jesus. But gazillions of otherwise very credible folks and the entire written history of western civilization including the calendar we use to measure time provides a huge and compelling body of evidence. Apparently something very important and world-changing happened in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. I'll leave my personal anecdotal experiences out of this. But just based on testimony and evidence...the "preponderance of the evidence" as the lawyers say...I have to be open-minded on the subject. So I certainly understand folks who are convinced, and I have no problem with that. It isn't a threat to me. It doesn't upset me. People who don't believe don't bother me either. I think I know what I think I know. What someone else thinks they know really doesn't have any bearing on that, and it certainly doesn't threaten my beliefs.

Religious, political, and philosophical discussions generally become adversarial because most people are not secure enough in what they believe to be true/right to tolerate conflicting ideologies and worldviews very well. It makes them nervous, and they feel compelled to "convince" others that they are right in order to validate their own beliefs. "If I can convince someone else, then it must be true." BS! Jim Jones convinced hunreds of folks to commit suicide. Was he right? Hitler convinced millions that he was right. Was he? The Japanese truly believed they were descended from the sun god and had a divine right to rule the world by military force and subjugate the rest of mankind. Millions and millions of them believed this. Does that mean the Japanese Emperor was right? I think even the current Emperor would tell you they were all mistaken. The ability to convince others is only a strong indicator of one's persuasiveness. It is not an indicator of the rightness or truthfulness of the subject matter.

It annoys me that so many people cannot engage in these types of discussions for very long without bickering or fighting or going to war.

The Japanese didn't think they were right they were in desperate financial crisis. They thought that if they won the first strike, Pearl Harbor, that the Americans would sue for peace and they would derive benefit therefrom. As for the Emperor... Historically the concept that he was descended from the gods was BS to justify his absolute control over the diamond's, the feudal fiefs. With the concept firmly implanted into the Samaria of honor and death before dishonor, a godhead is whatever he wishes to be and deserves absolute obedience. Had it hot been for the screw up and time difference, the Japanese would have given, in fact did, but too late, wish to avert the war and sue for peace before the war actually began.

Well, that's all interesting and all, but my perspective on Japanese culture and history extends FAR beyond Pearl Harbor and the US-Japanese relationship. WW2 began WAY before Pearl Harbor. And the Japanese sense of divinity and manifest destiny traces its roots to about 700 AD and permeated their entire social reality. If you think that most Japanese didn't believe it over the majority of the time from about 1000 AD until about 1941, you are very mistaken. The Japanese religion of ancestor worship and animism based on the sun god myth, Shinto, is STILL alive and well in Japan. And it was by far the dominant religion of the people for over 1,000 years until the Japanese were defeated in WW2.

But this is ALL beside the point of this thread...or at least only peripherally pertinent. So let's not run off chasing this rabbit.

I accept my spiritual experiences as personal interpretations about the possible meaning of existence for me. It's when others start using their experiences to tell us how things are or what we should do that the red flags start flying.

Andre Gideif said it best for me: Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

The fun part is that if we take the dogma and differing opinions out of religion and God, the only belief we are left with is:

You all sound like my children, "No I'm right," "NO I'm right," "NO IM RIGHT," until Mommy has to come in and say "Your both right, now go outside and play nice."

YOU ALL say I'm not trying to impose on anyone's rights to believe whatever they want, but, Isn't that exactly what you are proposing? Is interfering with every one's right to believe in any thing except what you believe in, even if its nothing? simply because you want liberty and justice for YOU? You cant believe in "GOD" out loud in this country anymore, just because of a minority group of "non-believers."
Let me ask you all something, why is "GOD" so offensive to you? Why are you all so offended by people who believe in something simply because you don't? How can you sit there and tell everyone they have to be just like you, because you believe they want you to be just like them? Why is it that none of you can have faith, or not, and stand alone in it? Isn't that what faith, or not, is all about?
(BTW, I am on the side of the Mommy, meaning the Government who has to listen to your stupid childish squabbles and then do something fair and just because she loves you both the same.)

How in the hell do any of you imagine they are going to take "GOD" off the American currency? they cant even get rid of pennies because of how many are in circulation. Imagine what it would take to change it now. Or do you think that we should put ANOTHER huge strain on our National deficit by changing it just so you don't have to be tempted to believe? This would cost more than its worth if you ask me.

You know what I say, if you don't like that our cash says "GOD" on it, use your fucking debit card and get over yourself.

~K~

this topic is old news

If any of you wish to speak to god tonight, he will be in the basement playiing pool with friends, drinking beer, and asking for more money to put into the pool table.

GoodGenes,
I find your stance very admirable, I also believe its our responsibility to teach our children to think for them selves, and I do not take my children to church. They have been to church, usually with friends, and for the same reason, they get to choose what they believe, and if they want to go, child or not, faith is a personal choice.
Your trying to make people care and you can't. You cannot dictate what anyone believes, not anymore than they can dictate for you.
I do not litter, I hate litter. I teach my kids not to litter, mostly because I can't stand to look at trash on the side of the road.
Many of people believe in the 2nd coming, many believe the world will blow up, some believe aliens will pick us up in a space ship and take us back to their planet. So what, if what you really want is to change the world, lead by example, change your world, make a difference in your community.
You should probably change to solar power, or wind, grow your own veggies and fruit, raise your own beef etc. Make your own clothing. No more Internet, cable TV, plastic/Styrofoam, rubber, A/C, books, newspapers, phonebooks, But most important of all DO NOT DRIVE ever again. Your car is killing our planet every bit as much as every other car.
Kinda sounds radical huh? but until you give up everything of this century, you are also adding to the problem, and blaming it all on "God fearing" people.
Peoples faith is not why our planet is polluted. Scientists who keep inventing new and fabulous shortcuts and conveniences are. If they had never invented plastic, there would not be landfills full of it, see my point?
~K~

Jeff,
Thanks......I think!!??
Not really temper, just frustration in another thread turning a 180 into a debate about religion, I don't have religious beliefs and hate having them crammed down my throat, and I think the same is true of non believers, why argue over this stuff, nobody will ever flip over someones words. If anyone was going to make me want to attend church it would be my Dad, hes been trying for 33 years and cant get me to go!!

GG,
I'm sorry if I came off testy, wasn't trying to be bitchy, I guess when I am being serious and not playful its just comes out wrong. (I promise I'm really nice in real life!!, my humor and flirtatiousness doesn't filter on the screen.)
I really have a lot of respect for you two and how stead fast you stand to your own beliefs, I enjoy "discussing" any topic with you, your always very cordial, and DAM you guys are so smart! Keep posting, and I will try to keep my big mouth shut!

"Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry."

Swingers Forum - patriot or not