Swingers on Swingular - Swingers Forum - A paradigm shift

This is a topic that I find increasingly fascinating the more I'm exposed to people who are involved in this way of being. I've long held the notion that there isn't just one person out there for an individual given the tremendous variety of paths any one person's life can take. One of them will lead you to that one person or possibly any other given number of persons.

**Disclaimer: for the sake of this post, we will not explore the "wrong" people that come and go in our lives, because they are transitory and irrelevent to this topic**

The thought that got me started on this idea was that a person who loses their significant other, their one and only. Was it truly their one and only? Only time will tell. There are some who will remain alone for the rest of their days rejecting the mere thought that there could be someone else out there for them to love who will in turn love them back for the rest of their lives. Others will seek out and find another love that will last the test of time.

So, I ask this... Did that second person suddenly materialize on the planet the moment the first one was gone? Or was that person transformed into a person who could love you and you could love for the rest of your lives when your first love was taken from you? Chances are, probably not. They were out there the whole time.

For whatever reason you never met them before then, but if you did meet them while your first love was still very much part of your life what would/could happen? The first possibility would obviously to break off all contact with them no matter how painful and mostly likely think of them for the rest of your life. The second and most oftenly seen possibility, is ending your first relationship and running off to explore this new (and oftenly perceived better relationship).

I would like to interrupt the flow of this supposition briefly to say that no two relationships are the same so comparing two strong solid relationships that will last is a somewhat futile effort. Finding a secondary relationship during one of the down times in your primary relationship, doesn't make the primary relationship bad and the second one better. Anyway, back to my train of thought...

What if? What if there was a third option, in which you could love both of them, have relationships with both of them and take nothing away from either one. A tremendous amount of work? Yes, but for some it would be worthwhile. Communication, trust, and a willingness from all involved to participate in this new relationship would go without saying. Then again, didn't it also take all those things to allow your relationship to evolve into one that included the lifestyle? Perhaps for some, the natural evolution of their relationships will include polyamory. Not all people will find this something they are willing to be a part of, just as not all people are willing to be part of the lifestyle, but for those who reach that level of evolution, I see, a tremendous potential to love and be loved.

So that is what's been rattling around in my skull recently. There are lots of "if"s and "but"s involved because this topic has challenged my preconceived notions about what relationships are "supposed" to be. What are your thoughts?

-SG

I think that the biggest problem most people have created in regards to "love" relationships is that they enter them for the "wrong" reasons........ to end loneliness, fill a gap, bring themselves love, or someone to love, and those are some of the better reasons. Others do so to salve their ego, end their depressions, improve their sex lives, recover from a previous relationship, or, believe it or not, to relieve boredom. None of these reasons will work, and unless something dramatic changes along the way, neither will the relationship. Very few of us stop to look at why we "fell in love." For most people, love is a response to need fulfillment. Everyone has needs. You need this, another needs that. You both see in each other a chance for need fulfillment. So you agree to a trade. I'll trade you what I've got if you'll give me what you've got. It's a transaction. But you don't tell the truth about it. You don't say, "I trade you very much." You say, "I love you very much," and then the disappointment begins. Even worse, what some of us mean is, "I own you very much." Love is not ownership.

Maybe before two people enter into a "committed" relationship, they should agree on purpose. Maybe they should agree at a conscious level that the purpose of their relationship is to create an opportunity, not an obligation - an opportunity for growth, for full Self expression, and for lifting their lives to their highest potential.

"Loving" someone is not "owning" them.

So, can you romantically love more than one person? Of course. Can you do that within our current social constructions? Doubtful.

This is a big big topic... good one.

It is true to say that an amazing thing about being human (thank any God figure you'de like

) is that we have an INFINITE capacity to love. It is most obvious in women but exists in us all.

I understand all of the comments about walking a path together, finding the one and only, etc and that is a great way to live but the fact is, we can love more than we do. We can choose to want to be with a certain person more than any other but we can love many. The easiest way to show this is that when a child is born they make the parents feel as if they could never love like they do this first beautiful child but when others come along what we experience is an expansion of our capacity to love. It is limitless. As mothers and parents can love many children so can we all love many others. We dont need to, some dont want to, but some feel it is a natural and Godly way to live. The biggest obstacle to it is jealousy or feelings of ownership which Swingers have largely learned are "lower thinking" attributes and, at least as far as the physical goes, they are beyond jealousy etc (of course I mean the healthy ones).

Big Love is a real deal. It scares many people, even swingers but it is the next and logical progression in the more enlightened thinkers out there, which many swingers are. We swingers have at least tackled the threat that comes from "physical" sharing but many are scared to death to hear their loving sharing spouse express feelings of love for another man or woman.

A great book on this topic is "The Future of Love" by Daphne Rose Kingma. It's excellent.

Im sure this idea (polyamory) is not for everybody but it is natural and can be as rewarding and freeing as swinging is I'm told...(Jealousy, guilt and ownership are unnatural 'learned' behaviors).

I already know I cant be 'everything' to my loving partner but am I strong enough to allow her "love" someong else? Oh wait... is that really my decision?

Thats my 2 cents...

Dave

Gotta disagree here, TR. Jealousy and guilt are not natural. So many of us have those and other un-natural emotions that we think they are natural. But in the grand scheme of things, all there is, is Love. We are all One, and it is our illusion of separateness that creates our fear which in turn creates things like jealousy and guilt. If only we all consciously knew this, what a wonderful world it would be!

Polyamory ... hmmm. Tricky one this.

To answer the original question, I think there are many out there who "fit" us at any given time. It's just a matter of finding them. I've been damn fortunate in that respect.

To speculate further, I think it's very possible to have multiple love relationships that will work together. But will they last? I only know of one that has and many that have failed. So I believe the odds are pretty stacked.

Me personally? Hell. I have enough of a challenge keeping long-term relationships together with one person! Why would I want to subject those challenges to multiple partners???

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I just wanted to say a quick thanks to one and all for your input! I appreciate the thought that has been put into your contributions. Carry on!

-SG

Actually TR, there are 5 natural emotions........... grief, anger, envy, fear, and love. Love and fear are the basis for all emotions. The other 3 are outgrowths of these 2. Actually they are all outgrowths of love.

The problem comes in when any of the 5 natural emotions become distorted. Then they become grotesque and not recognizable at all as outgrowths of love.

Grief is a natural emotion. It's that part of you which allows you to express, push out, and propel the sadness within you at the experience of any kind of loss. When you are allowed to express grief, you get rid of it. Grief that is continually repressed becomes depression, a very unnatural emotion. People have killed because of chronic depression. Wars have started, nations have fallen.

Anger is a natural emotion. It is the tool you have which allows you to say, "No thank you." It does not have to be abusive, and it never has to be damaging to another. Anger that is continually repressed becomes rage, a very unnatural emotion. People have killed because of rage. Wars have started, nations have fallen.

Envy is a natural emotion. It is the emotion that makes a 5 year old wish he could reach the doorknob the way his sister can, or ride that bike. It is very healthy to be envious, very natural. Envy that is continually repressed becomes Jealousy, a very unnatural emotion. People have killed because of jealousy. Wars have started, nations have fallen.

Fear is a natural emotion. The purpose of natural fear is to build in a bit of caution. Caution is a tool that helps keep the body alive. It is an outgrowth of love, Love of self. Fear that is continually repressed becomes panic, a very unnatural emotion. People have killed because of panic. Wars have started, nations have fallen.

Love is a natural emotion. When it is allowed to be expressed, and received, normally and naturally, without limitation or condition, inhibition or embarrassment, it does not require anything more. Yet love which has been conditioned, limited, warped by rules and regulations, rituals and restrictions, controlled, manipulated, and withheld, becomes unnatural. Love that is continually repressed becomes possessiveness, a very unnatural emotion. People have killed because of possessiveness. Wars have started, nations have fallen.

And so it is that the natural emotions, when repressed, produce unnatural reactions and responses. Most natural emotions are repressed in most people. Yet these are your friends. These are your gifts. You are given these tools at birth. They help you negotiate life.

Wow... what an elaborate response! Impressive...

You have a gift... Are you a politician or a lawyer?

Cheers!

I ahve to argue against the person who said Jealousy is not an emotion all feel. This is because since the begining of time people, and groups have competed for scare resources. This has lead to prejudic as well as hate and war. Male to male aggressions usually steam from wanting the best and most attractive mate.

I will say this although we are enjoying the life style so far I myself could never be committed to and living with multiple women, it would drive me nuts. the nagging, the wnating emotional connecting, and the not realizing I am a guy and need a few basic things to be happy; food, drink, sex, sleep and to be left alone while the eagles play with a cheesesteak and a cold beer.

Don, this is cool. Thanks for your interaction. It seems that neither one of us has much to do. LOL.

My info comes from life experience and a book titled Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. Some of it also comes from Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. The CWG books are the only things I have ever read or experienced about life and God that make sense. Don't let the title distract you. The books are NOT religious. I strongly suggest you read books 1,2, and 3 if for no other reason than a new perspective. I would love to hear your opinion.

The events of your life are not what matter. What matters is your reaction to them. Things like jealousy and guilt are distorted reactions to one of the 5 natural emotions. And yes, they are learned. Guilt and shame is something which is imposed on a being from outside of itself. It can then be internalized, no question, but it is initially imposed from the outside. No divine being (and we are divine) ever knows itself or anything it is doing to be "shameful" or "guilty" until someone outside of itself labels it that way. Is a baby ashamed of it's "bathroom habits?" Of course not. Not until you tell it to be. Does a child fell "guilty" for pleasuring itself with it's genitals? Of course not. Not until you tell it to feel guilty.

The human being is angry because it knows it should feel no shame over something that feels so natural and good, and yet it does feel shame and guilt because it has been told to. First, the human being becomes angry with the Self for feeling so good about something which is supposed to be so "bad." Then, when they finally realize they've been duped...... that sexuality is supposed to be a wonderful. honorable, glorious part of the human experience.... they become angry with others: parents for repressing them, religion for shaming them, members of the opposite sex for daring them, and the whole society for controlling them. Finally, they become angry with themselves for allowing all of this to inhibit them.

We have created sexual embarrassment. repression, and shame, which in turn has led to sexual inhibition, dysfuntion, and violence. We, as a society, will always be inhibited about that over which we are embarrassed; always be dysfuntional with behaviors which have been repressed, and always act out violently in protest of being made to feel shame about that over which we know in our hearts we should never have felt shame at all.

So yes, I think some of these emotions of which you speak are learned, dysfuntional, and unnatural.

Don, sorry to reply personally but I have to, you jumped me pretty good. And to the group I apologize that this takes away from the original intent of the post.

There is a concept out there that says "unless you have actual personal experience with something, it is nothing more than theory." How can we judge theories that we have no experience with without seeming to be petty or small mined? I know it happens every day, we all do it, but we shouldn't, really, who has the time?

To my point about Guilt and Jealousy being learned behavior and almost always bad... You seem to have confused Conscience with Guilt. They are not the same thing. Guilt is subordinate to Conscience. Conscience is good and is universal. Guilt is bad, it is taught, it is how you are conditioned by others (church leaders, parents etc). Just about the only people you will find that support "Guilt is Good" are religious leaders, speakers and authors. Yes, even Christian psychologists say it is good. But just look at what it is... "Guilt is what others tell you you should feel (over your lifetime) when they associate actions with consequences." Its what people tell you therefore it is "learned" behavior. Guilt is misplaced, misused and miss-attached all over the place. ex. People use "guilt trips" to manipulate behavior etc. Conscience pretty universally guides all modern higher thinking humans (forget about anomalies such as Sociopaths and some Aboriginal) to avoid doing things that are intentionally harmful to others. Its the basic principle of Love. Dont steal, because it hurts others. Dont lie, dont cheat, dont commit violence etc because it is harmful to others and ultimately to ourselves. Buddhism is largely based on that concept. Everyones conscience tells them these things are wrong to do. Guilt is what psychologists say we "Attach" to things after the fact. Guilt can be used to keep people obeying rules or it can be used to totally dominate and screw people up. Conscience good. Guilt, most often bad. Guilt is what people tell you it is, Conscience exists.

Jealousy: I stand by my earlier statement... 100% learned. Simply consider the fact that it can easily be unlearned... it is a conditioned (learned) response based on fear. it too fucks people up big time. Nothing good about it.

I have seen in other posts that you are quick to attack people for being "judgmental" but your attacks here and comments disrespecting others points of view are so over the top with judgement that you would do well to heed your own counsel (my opinion). You have claimed (by implication) that your relationship is superior to any poly relationships and you have called acupuncture (and by association those who believe or practice it) "bull shit". Hmm.

Just as in taking a look at the difference between Conscience and Guilt you ought to take a look at the difference between Judgement and Observation. You can make pure observations without being judgmental. I can point out the very judgmental positions you have taken without judging you myself. You could have said that "you dont "get" the poly lifestyle" without saying that yours is superior (implied) because they are "selling themselves short". That is your judgement based story. Just a thought.

Take it easy man, there is lots to be learned out there and at least I applaud you for being so deeply in the mix. But, if you attack me now like you have previous posts instead of saying "thanks for the alternative points of view" then my point will be made in spades.

Respectfully,

Dave

PS - you wrongly assumed I am Poly. I am not. Been married 28 years this year. No poly involvements. And since my 28 year marriage is statistically in the great minority it is safe to conclude that we are not necessarily "mate for life" beings. Most people, the majority, work out their mating with different partners. Polys dont limit it to one after the other. That is just an observation of fact, not a judgement.

Don, my friend, everything ain't about science, dude. We are spiritual beings, and as well read as you are, I'm sure you know that science is now discovering it's spiritual connection. It's all energy, and what we put out is what we get back. I'm not saying that guilt and jealousy don't exist. I don't look at things as right or wrong. It's all about "what works." And if what we want as a society is peace, harmony, truth, love, and joy ...... guilt and jealousy don't work.

Peace, Brother!

In an effort to refocus, I'd like to toss a little fuel on the topical fire.

http://www.polyamoryonline.org/poly101.html

CID, that was wonderful info. Thanks.

One thing really hit home for me. The statement about being miserable in a monogamous relationship. Wow! That is me. But, not only miserable in monogamous relationships...... also miserable without a significant other. What a quandry. Consequently throughout my life, I have found myself getting into "committed relationships," becoming miserable (not with the person, but with the lack of freedom), eventually ending the relationship, and then being miserable not being in a relationship. Thus, easily falling into a another one, and the cycle continues.

Now I have found my current partner ( what a blessing). Our original idea was to be in the lifestyle and also, see other people seperately. Well, it has turned out to be the lifestyle only, which has been fun and more free, but I still long for the one on one connections with other women. She accepts that verbally, but I know she would have a problem with me actually doing it. So, even though we agree we can, we don't.

Any therapists out there?

Yeah it seems alot of people get married for social reasons. I will say this that if you really loved someone and they loved you. Then you both would explore eachothers "paths". I believe that in order to be with some one for a long time. Like a marrige you have to be physically attracted to them. Love, caring, and friendship, blossom through that. But that isn't to say that He or she will be the only person you are attracted to for the rest of your life. That is just crazy talk.

Awesome thread and insight everyone!

As has been previously stated, without practical experience my thoughts on the subject are only theoretical. I've met many people who have attempted poly and failed with (almost always) devastating and long lasting results to the original relationship. I've yet to meet anyone who has made it work. I know there are, as always, exceptions to every situation, but by and large the proof is in the pudding.

I know that for myself, I thrive and enjoy being part of a committed relationship. The connection and depth of emotion that I am capable of is not something that I believe I would be capable of with more than one person at a time. I would have to ask as well, would I be able to give as much as I do OR would I hold back because I knew that I wasn't getting *all* of him or her?

Nope. Not for me. So does that make me part of the majority or a little less evolved? hehe

Te

Hitting the topic of Poly.... I am poly my wife is not. We swing. I have a lady friend, spice if you will who is also married and her husband is not poly and they do not swing. We, all 4 of us are fast friends and both my wife and her husband have no problem with her's and my arrangement. THey also know that We swing. Now how did that person come into our life.. we met and became friends almost immediatly. I fell in love with her but am sill "IN love with my wife as well. I< we, like to become friends with people before we jump into the sack with them... BTW they both know that we swing. Could I fall in love with another woman, definitely.. Could I fall for a woman who we might swing with....I could and have. No biggy...If she is not into that I understand... Not everyone can handle the situation

Some one mentioned that jealousy are natural.... Only in the sense that by example we are programmed to them, just as we are not "taught " not to eat other people but we kind of get that impression...Canibalism(sp) is not acceptable any more than is marrying ones own sister or brother. Possessiveness is about owning somthing that is not yours to own. No one owns anyone else and especially not their spouse. Is it natural to own a person? I say no. Somehow when people get into a relationship the idea creeps in that says that the other person is your exclusive property. One need to put that aside if one is a swinger. As for jealousy.... Jealousy is a combination of both possessiveness and ones own insadequacies. Maybe one could describe that as fear.. Fear that she or he will meet someone better. Fear that we are not good enough, etc etc etc. So Jealousy is a reaction to these fears and the possessiveness not a true emotion at all. Everyone thinks of Jealousy as an emotion, which it is not.

So polyamory is very possibly with swinging but may purists of poly will say that poly and swinging are difinitely two different things... Maybe but they can exist simultaneously.

Just a note; More than 60% and I've seen figures up to 77% of all married couples, and I'm sure that it extends to LTR's as well...maybe even swingers, are at some time in their life engaged in serial monogamy..; i.e., either cheating or getting ready for the split-up. Isn't this a simpler form of or something like poly? ... THink about that....

Well said, EXPLORR.

Thanks for the added insight Explorr! A lot of people I think view poly as the couple with the live in girlfriend/boyfriend, but there are many different ways poly relationships exist and come into being.

A very interesting discussion and there are some great points made.

Sociologists and psychologists have long argued that jealousy is a pathology, and should be treated as shameful, that jealousy is the product of society, but evolutionary biologists and anthropologists tell a very different tale, that the societal values placed on monogamy and the harsh punishments levied for adultery are simply reinforcements of evolutionary directives.

Natural and sexual selection are the forces by which evolution occurs. As such, the primary directives of any organism are to (1) survive and (2) reproduce (or survive TO reproduce). Were it not so, we wouldn't be here, of course. Genetic traits are therefore passed on if 1) the organism survives long enough to reproduce, and 2) the organism is ABLE to reproduce. The more effective the strategies for survival and reproduction, the greater that organism's offspring contribute to the gene pool for future generations.

Emotions can be traced back to our two primary directives, and biology speaks to the ancient and ingrained nature of these emotions. From flatworms to humans, brain structures exist in various stages of complexity, and evidence exists that brains evolved from the inside-out. That is, the oldest structures are the ones near the bottom/center, and the newest ones are near the outside. Our brains presumably developed in the way they did because the newer structures (for instance, the cerebral cortex) helped organisms to better accomplish the prime directives and out-compete other organisms trying to do the same. Some of the oldest structures of the brain (the medulla oblongata, the mesencephalon, and the diencephalon

VP-

Oh, sorry for the incomplete reference, the reference is from the McMaster University of Canada (Wilson and Daly, 1992). Does that make more sense? Thanks for the props! Genetics and evolutionary biology, especially as applied to human behavior, are both my vocation and my avocation (although I'm sure there are dissenters to my position). I'm a geek!

Mrs.

Geeks are fun too!! and need lovin too!!

Interesting thread. We had to look quite hard to find it. I think we will send this reply out in hopes of getting more responses as it is very timely to a situation in our life.

Swingers Forum - A paradigm shift - polyamory