In your opinion what is open-mindedness? What place does it have in the lifestyle? Do you find that open-mindedness with regards to sexuality translate into other areas of your life or the life of those you encounter in the lifestyle? How important is it to you?
Good questions genes. I think that some people are open in certain areas, only to be very closed and guarded in other areas, (hell look at all the flames in the forums ya know). I mean, most on this site would say they are very open minded sexually, yet, throw in a single male, or a single BI male and it is pretty quick to see how fast that "open minded-ness" closes right down.
I think everybody has their comfort levels, and in certain instances are willing to push the limits on certain things. But to be truly open minded, you have to take ego out of the picture, something that very few people can do and apply it to their whole lives.
To learn you first have to admit you may not know......
I think everybody has their comfort levels, and in certain instances are willing to push the limits on certain things. But to be truly open minded, you have to take ego out of the picture, something that very few people can do and apply it to their whole lives.
To learn you first have to admit you may not know......
****SOAPBOX****
Just thought I'd warn ya all.
Openmindedness, hmm...I've always thought it was a pretty simple thing. Being open to other peoples opinions, views or practices - Even if they are not shared by you.
As someone who came to this lifestyle by way of Kink, I practice openmindedness from a Pansexual viewpoint.
(Pansexual: Relating to, having, or open to sexual activity of many kinds.)
The Kink community is very friendly to Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, etc. We try not to judge or discriminate against anyone based upon their sexuality as long as their intent is not to harm. We take part in the lifestyle to *have fun and share experiences*.
When sex is involved (in the Kink community, it is not all about sex), protection is taken. So the fact that someone is gay, lesbian or bisexual is rather moot. Everyone is protected. Period.
Needless to say, I am rather shocked and more than a little disappointed whenever I hear people (some of which I consider good friends) go off on bisexuals and gays.
Now. I ask you, have you heard me complain? No. Why?
Open Mind.
I'm not better than you, I simply choose to practice what I preach. You are entitled to your opinion. I am not going to change your mind by arguing with you, and I'm certainly not going to validate my own viewpoint by becoming a hypocrite and Judging you.
So...Openmindedness.
Being open to opposing views and practices - and not being ignorant about your opposition.
-Mr. K_T
Just thought I'd warn ya all.
Openmindedness, hmm...I've always thought it was a pretty simple thing. Being open to other peoples opinions, views or practices - Even if they are not shared by you.
As someone who came to this lifestyle by way of Kink, I practice openmindedness from a Pansexual viewpoint.
(Pansexual: Relating to, having, or open to sexual activity of many kinds.)
The Kink community is very friendly to Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, etc. We try not to judge or discriminate against anyone based upon their sexuality as long as their intent is not to harm. We take part in the lifestyle to *have fun and share experiences*.
When sex is involved (in the Kink community, it is not all about sex), protection is taken. So the fact that someone is gay, lesbian or bisexual is rather moot. Everyone is protected. Period.
Needless to say, I am rather shocked and more than a little disappointed whenever I hear people (some of which I consider good friends) go off on bisexuals and gays.
Now. I ask you, have you heard me complain? No. Why?
Open Mind.
I'm not better than you, I simply choose to practice what I preach. You are entitled to your opinion. I am not going to change your mind by arguing with you, and I'm certainly not going to validate my own viewpoint by becoming a hypocrite and Judging you.
So...Openmindedness.
Being open to opposing views and practices - and not being ignorant about your opposition.
-Mr. K_T
We generally try to be open-minded in all areas of our lives, but as far as the lifestyle goes; it means that we are open to any suggestions, and we have no pre-set rules. We do not judge people's sexuality or their choices. It's all good, if you make it that way. The definition of sex is pretty much endless. " Expressing and experiencing joy" is the best definition I can come up with. We have our preferences, but will never say, " we won't try that", unless it hurts too much or is nasty or unhealthy. We might not admit to it, but we will probably try it. LOL.
I believe all of us will try anything in our minds ........ so, wouldn't it be great if we could do it, physically, without fear? Maybe we could if there was no such thing as "judgement." Think of the things you might do sexually if you knew no one would ever know about it. It wouldn't make any difference who knew if no one judged you for it.
I believe all of us will try anything in our minds ........ so, wouldn't it be great if we could do it, physically, without fear? Maybe we could if there was no such thing as "judgement." Think of the things you might do sexually if you knew no one would ever know about it. It wouldn't make any difference who knew if no one judged you for it.
Really!
I would hate to have the burden of answering that in your community, so let me ask...
"Are you Open Minded?"
If you answer "Yes" you're tagged as something you may not want to be.
If you answer "No" then you're liable to be seen as ignorant.
(Again, not passing judgement...just my observation. Who DOESN'T want to be seen as Open Minded? Or rather, who likes to admit to being Close Minded?)
Kind of ugly connotations if you ask me.
Personally, yes. I'm Open Minded.
If you want to know my Orientation, look at my profile or simply ask.
You know what they say about assumptions.
-Mr. K_T
I would hate to have the burden of answering that in your community, so let me ask...
"Are you Open Minded?"
If you answer "Yes" you're tagged as something you may not want to be.
If you answer "No" then you're liable to be seen as ignorant.
(Again, not passing judgement...just my observation. Who DOESN'T want to be seen as Open Minded? Or rather, who likes to admit to being Close Minded?)
Kind of ugly connotations if you ask me.
Personally, yes. I'm Open Minded.
If you want to know my Orientation, look at my profile or simply ask.
You know what they say about assumptions.
-Mr. K_T
I guess everyone thinks they are "open minded" but lets face it most of us are not.
I've found alot of people who think open minded means you listen to and agree with their point of view and then they are open minded and you are too LOL
I like to think I'm open minded myself, but I'm sure we'll find some subject matter that will not apply, and I am sure most of us are the same.
Let me give you an example.....
Some one mentioned bi males and single males.... How about straight females?
How many have excluded a couple from a get together because "she" is str8 so there fore you won't invite that couple?
How many have excluded a couple because he is "bi" so therefore you won't invite that couple?
How many have excluded a couple because they are not height - weight appropriate?
Etc Etc Etc......
I've found alot of people who think open minded means you listen to and agree with their point of view and then they are open minded and you are too LOL
I like to think I'm open minded myself, but I'm sure we'll find some subject matter that will not apply, and I am sure most of us are the same.
Let me give you an example.....
Some one mentioned bi males and single males.... How about straight females?
How many have excluded a couple from a get together because "she" is str8 so there fore you won't invite that couple?
How many have excluded a couple because he is "bi" so therefore you won't invite that couple?
How many have excluded a couple because they are not height - weight appropriate?
Etc Etc Etc......
Nail on the head, FUN
Uriah......... In your neighborhood, I am not open-minded..... LOL. But, still not closed-minded to that choice.
Uriah......... In your neighborhood, I am not open-minded..... LOL. But, still not closed-minded to that choice.
Open minded distills down to something rather simple IMO - how one listens, and how one reacts. Or also stated, how one JUDGES another.
We are all humans, and we ALL have preferences, biases, prejudices, etc. - like it or not, it's a part of human nature. A significant portion of the population chooses to react and/or pass judgment negatively, based on those preferences and biases, and a portion chooses to make the same judgment or preference, but with a more polite and "human" response.
As an example, I personally do not have an attraction to sex acts involving scat or urine - it's not something that piques my interest or persists in fantasies. However, if someone i am communicating with says they have an interest in this area, i can either do one of two things:
1. close my ears and react negatively, criticizing their lifestyle choices, or
2. give them the common courtesy of listening to what they've shared, and truly HEAR their interest, and THEN give an appropriate response along the lines of "Thanks for sharing that, but at this time it's not something in which i am interested, but i wish you luck in finding others who share your interests."
In both cases, I am electing to not participate in their activities. However, in the second, having an open mind and the courtesy to listen, and respond in a manner in which you would like to be "rejected" is much more polite.
I am open minded - i will listen to ANYTHING someone shares with me, and truly give attention to their comments - if i am not on board, i'll let them know politely, but i'll never dismiss anyone without hearing their story or comments fully.
We are all humans, and we ALL have preferences, biases, prejudices, etc. - like it or not, it's a part of human nature. A significant portion of the population chooses to react and/or pass judgment negatively, based on those preferences and biases, and a portion chooses to make the same judgment or preference, but with a more polite and "human" response.
As an example, I personally do not have an attraction to sex acts involving scat or urine - it's not something that piques my interest or persists in fantasies. However, if someone i am communicating with says they have an interest in this area, i can either do one of two things:
1. close my ears and react negatively, criticizing their lifestyle choices, or
2. give them the common courtesy of listening to what they've shared, and truly HEAR their interest, and THEN give an appropriate response along the lines of "Thanks for sharing that, but at this time it's not something in which i am interested, but i wish you luck in finding others who share your interests."
In both cases, I am electing to not participate in their activities. However, in the second, having an open mind and the courtesy to listen, and respond in a manner in which you would like to be "rejected" is much more polite.
I am open minded - i will listen to ANYTHING someone shares with me, and truly give attention to their comments - if i am not on board, i'll let them know politely, but i'll never dismiss anyone without hearing their story or comments fully.
I agree FUN and Horn (GREAT points).
We all make choices. It's when we restrict the choices of others or make others feel unwelcome or threatened by the choices they have made that I have trouble with.
I may choose not to play with someone of a certain age (say below 24). Or someone below a certain weight because I find that unappealing to me. But I don't believe I would ever make them feel unwelcome or uncomfortable in a group setting.
-K_T
We all make choices. It's when we restrict the choices of others or make others feel unwelcome or threatened by the choices they have made that I have trouble with.
I may choose not to play with someone of a certain age (say below 24). Or someone below a certain weight because I find that unappealing to me. But I don't believe I would ever make them feel unwelcome or uncomfortable in a group setting.
-K_T
Totally agree K_T and Horn.
I try to do the same, thats where alot of "open minded" people don't get it.
You can listen to someones viewpoint and still not agree with what they say, do or like.
What works for one person doesn't always work for another, but they still have a right to like or dislike what they choose to....... as do I.
Doesn't mean I'm wrong or they are wrong, just means we have different wants, views, needs or desires.
I try to do the same, thats where alot of "open minded" people don't get it.
You can listen to someones viewpoint and still not agree with what they say, do or like.
What works for one person doesn't always work for another, but they still have a right to like or dislike what they choose to....... as do I.
Doesn't mean I'm wrong or they are wrong, just means we have different wants, views, needs or desires.
Open minded is when you neither look at, nor care what someone's plumbing or sexual preference is.
I see lots of people who could be potential golf buddies, barbecue pals, or dinner party guests, except I can't write them because they say "NO SINGLE MEN - WE WILL DELETE YOUR MAIL" so they don't get to find out what a great fellow I am outside the bedroom. LOL
Great thread...
I see lots of people who could be potential golf buddies, barbecue pals, or dinner party guests, except I can't write them because they say "NO SINGLE MEN - WE WILL DELETE YOUR MAIL" so they don't get to find out what a great fellow I am outside the bedroom. LOL
Great thread...
I see open mindedness a bit situational for most people and while each has their own levels of diversity openness most still tend to set limits. However the observation about the lack of acceptance of bi males or non bi females in the lifestyle does seem out of context with our actions that reach out for sexual freedom. I saw one discussion in another swingers web site about gay marriage and I was somewhat surprised at how many swingers were defending the
Aye Swingtide.
Let's see what happens once the lawmakers figure out a way to lump our lifestyle, the Gay lifestyle and the Kink lifestyle together as "Dangerous" to the moral fabric. Once they lump us together and try banning it all I'll bet the minds and tolerance will open up in a beautiful horizon of Unity.
Hehehehe....
Sanctity of marriage my ass....don't even get me started on the sanctity of Marriage....I won't even bother discussing that topic without a drink in my hand a cigarette and Mrs. K_T with a Ball Gag handy. Heheheh!
-Mr. K_T
Let's see what happens once the lawmakers figure out a way to lump our lifestyle, the Gay lifestyle and the Kink lifestyle together as "Dangerous" to the moral fabric. Once they lump us together and try banning it all I'll bet the minds and tolerance will open up in a beautiful horizon of Unity.
Hehehehe....
Sanctity of marriage my ass....don't even get me started on the sanctity of Marriage....I won't even bother discussing that topic without a drink in my hand a cigarette and Mrs. K_T with a Ball Gag handy. Heheheh!
-Mr. K_T
We also agree that "open mindedness" is listening to someone elses views with out judging them for those views. We don't feel that it necessarily means we have to participate in those activities or agree with those opinions. But rather not putting them down or feel uncomfortable for having those views.
our opinion...from our rigid state of flexibility
T and V
our opinion...from our rigid state of flexibility
T and V
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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I think open-mindedness is a wonderful and necessary thing. However, just because you are open to understand something, doesn't mean you have agree with it. In fact, you can out right oppose it rightfully so, if it does not mesh with your views, morals etc. Being open-minded is to try and better understand why it does or does not mesh with our view. To accept that to some people may differ from your opinion is also "open-minded".
It's kind of like the rap discussion we were having in another thread. I am open-minded enough to accept and understand why some may like rap and or hip hop, however retard I may think it sounds. I am open minded enough to better understand why serial killers become serial killers, but I do not condone the behavior.
"Open-mindedness", in my opinion is one's ability to try and better understand all facets of a subject, by analyzing perspectives differing from one's own. We can then formulate and then render our own percpectives and conclusions regarding the subject, using this knowledge. I hope that shed some light on my perspective.
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<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>AEGIS3650,</b></font>
Perhaps you should try a different means of meeting Golf and BBQ buddies. Trying to do this on a swinger site doesn't make much sense. Trying to get couples to except single males by calling them close-minded probably won't work. Why would it matter that couples not looking for single males in the bedroom, not want to invite a single male over for a BBQ? I think it's obvious why they wouldn't invite a single male (from a swinger site) over for dinner. I am sure you are a great guy. If you want a Golf or BBQ buddy, hang out at a bar or use a different means that facilitates such aquaintances.
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<b>-D-</b>
<br>
P.S. Just because someone doesn't share your view, doesn't make them close-minded. We all have uniquities in thought, what makes us happy, our agendas, morals etc. It stands to reason that we will disagree sometimes. Does this make one close-minded? I think not.
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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I think open-mindedness is a wonderful and necessary thing. However, just because you are open to understand something, doesn't mean you have agree with it. In fact, you can out right oppose it rightfully so, if it does not mesh with your views, morals etc. Being open-minded is to try and better understand why it does or does not mesh with our view. To accept that to some people may differ from your opinion is also "open-minded".
It's kind of like the rap discussion we were having in another thread. I am open-minded enough to accept and understand why some may like rap and or hip hop, however retard I may think it sounds. I am open minded enough to better understand why serial killers become serial killers, but I do not condone the behavior.
"Open-mindedness", in my opinion is one's ability to try and better understand all facets of a subject, by analyzing perspectives differing from one's own. We can then formulate and then render our own percpectives and conclusions regarding the subject, using this knowledge. I hope that shed some light on my perspective.
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<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>AEGIS3650,</b></font>
Perhaps you should try a different means of meeting Golf and BBQ buddies. Trying to do this on a swinger site doesn't make much sense. Trying to get couples to except single males by calling them close-minded probably won't work. Why would it matter that couples not looking for single males in the bedroom, not want to invite a single male over for a BBQ? I think it's obvious why they wouldn't invite a single male (from a swinger site) over for dinner. I am sure you are a great guy. If you want a Golf or BBQ buddy, hang out at a bar or use a different means that facilitates such aquaintances.
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<b>-D-</b>
<br>
P.S. Just because someone doesn't share your view, doesn't make them close-minded. We all have uniquities in thought, what makes us happy, our agendas, morals etc. It stands to reason that we will disagree sometimes. Does this make one close-minded? I think not.
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And my point was proven...
By misrepresentation, misquoting, and eeek! closed-mindedness. Egads!~ who would have thunk it!
By misrepresentation, misquoting, and eeek! closed-mindedness. Egads!~ who would have thunk it!
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Patting AEGIS3650 on the head, Don said...</div>
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<b>AEGIS3650,</b>
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You said (directly quoted, check for yourself.):
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I see lots of people who could be potential golf buddies, barbecue pals, or dinner party guests, except I can't write them because they say "NO SINGLE MEN - WE WILL DELETE YOUR MAIL" so they don't get to find out what a great fellow I am outside the bedroom. LOL
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All I said was that, expecting a swinger couple that is looking for other swinger <b>COUPLES</b> (not singles) to contact you for a barbeque or golf seems ridiculous. You don't call a person trying to buy a car at a car lot "close-minded" because they pay no attention to the motorcycles, even if they enjoy riding motorcycles. Sure the motorcycle maybe fun to ride (for some), but no fault lies with a person, if they're only in the market for a car. You are being close-minded in thinking everyone should just drop their preferences to fit you in. Need I write it any clearer?
I will not sit idly while you call my wife, I and others like us "close-minded" because we don't want to have you over for a BBQ or dinner. We (TR) aren't into singles because we both decided that singles are fundementally incompatible with our desires in the swinging lifestyle. Granted on a individual basis, swinging aside, we sacrifice meeting some potentially cool people. However, The hassle of weeding through the many singles that aren't in it for the "friendship" and only for the sex (as this is a swinging site), is not worth the few potential plutonic single friends. Is this close-minded of us? NO! It's convenience for us.
You'll have to forgive us for not subjecting ourselves to a constant barrage of single guys and their witless, "I gotta huge cock" lines accompanied by tastless pics and countless other disrespect and other assorted classlessness.
Try opening <b>your</b> mind a little. See it from the couple's perspective. I can see it through your persepctive and I see an easy remedy for your situation. If plutonic friends are what you seek, try a vanilla bar or some other means. It's simple. Just don't expect swinger couples that wanna meet other "couples" to drop their single guy barrier to invite you over for a BBQ.
There is no reason to get upset. What I am saying to you is perfectly reasonable. Do we think all single guys are pukes? NO. We just don't wanna weed through the countless singles that are. Again it has nothing to do with being close-minded it is the strong desire to not be harassed.
So, do all of us a favor and open your mind to the bigger picture. Try not to expect others to sacrifice their peace of mind and or happiness to accomidate your social life or lack thereof. Thanks.
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Sincerely,
<b>-D-</b>
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P.S. This reminds me of those people that wanna legalize marijuana and when they can't get enough voters to back them the slap they "medicinal" label on it.
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Patting AEGIS3650 on the head, Don said...</div>
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<b>AEGIS3650,</b>
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You said (directly quoted, check for yourself.):
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I see lots of people who could be potential golf buddies, barbecue pals, or dinner party guests, except I can't write them because they say "NO SINGLE MEN - WE WILL DELETE YOUR MAIL" so they don't get to find out what a great fellow I am outside the bedroom. LOL
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All I said was that, expecting a swinger couple that is looking for other swinger <b>COUPLES</b> (not singles) to contact you for a barbeque or golf seems ridiculous. You don't call a person trying to buy a car at a car lot "close-minded" because they pay no attention to the motorcycles, even if they enjoy riding motorcycles. Sure the motorcycle maybe fun to ride (for some), but no fault lies with a person, if they're only in the market for a car. You are being close-minded in thinking everyone should just drop their preferences to fit you in. Need I write it any clearer?
I will not sit idly while you call my wife, I and others like us "close-minded" because we don't want to have you over for a BBQ or dinner. We (TR) aren't into singles because we both decided that singles are fundementally incompatible with our desires in the swinging lifestyle. Granted on a individual basis, swinging aside, we sacrifice meeting some potentially cool people. However, The hassle of weeding through the many singles that aren't in it for the "friendship" and only for the sex (as this is a swinging site), is not worth the few potential plutonic single friends. Is this close-minded of us? NO! It's convenience for us.
You'll have to forgive us for not subjecting ourselves to a constant barrage of single guys and their witless, "I gotta huge cock" lines accompanied by tastless pics and countless other disrespect and other assorted classlessness.
Try opening <b>your</b> mind a little. See it from the couple's perspective. I can see it through your persepctive and I see an easy remedy for your situation. If plutonic friends are what you seek, try a vanilla bar or some other means. It's simple. Just don't expect swinger couples that wanna meet other "couples" to drop their single guy barrier to invite you over for a BBQ.
There is no reason to get upset. What I am saying to you is perfectly reasonable. Do we think all single guys are pukes? NO. We just don't wanna weed through the countless singles that are. Again it has nothing to do with being close-minded it is the strong desire to not be harassed.
So, do all of us a favor and open your mind to the bigger picture. Try not to expect others to sacrifice their peace of mind and or happiness to accomidate your social life or lack thereof. Thanks.
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Sincerely,
<b>-D-</b>
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P.S. This reminds me of those people that wanna legalize marijuana and when they can't get enough voters to back them the slap they "medicinal" label on it.
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PLease, let's not get into the marijauna debate. It might make me smoke a doobie. But, that would be MY choice, wouldn't it?
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Don said...</div>
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<b>WETTFEM,</b>
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It most definelty is your choice. :-) I would sign a petition to legalize it for recreation. I was just pointing out that there are people who try and cover up their true intent by packaging it in bullshit. As far as smoking marijuana goes... Have at it. Just not in my house. LOL
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<b>-D-</b>
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Don said...</div>
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<b>WETTFEM,</b>
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It most definelty is your choice. :-) I would sign a petition to legalize it for recreation. I was just pointing out that there are people who try and cover up their true intent by packaging it in bullshit. As far as smoking marijuana goes... Have at it. Just not in my house. LOL
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<b>-D-</b>
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CNKISS,
<em>To learn you first have to admit you may not know...... </em>
Very well put! Thank you.
On homophobia:
Freud believed that we project the things we hate most about ourselves on others in the form of judgment. There have been quite a few studies that demonstrate a link between a man's arousal to homosexual stimuli and his homophobic feelings. If they protest too much...
I think Freud is right on, not only with regards to homosexuality, but in other areas where we judge each other. Why else do we get so angry?
WETTFM,
You could always go with Sally D. It's still legal for a few more months.
Mr.
<em>To learn you first have to admit you may not know...... </em>
Very well put! Thank you.
On homophobia:
Freud believed that we project the things we hate most about ourselves on others in the form of judgment. There have been quite a few studies that demonstrate a link between a man's arousal to homosexual stimuli and his homophobic feelings. If they protest too much...
I think Freud is right on, not only with regards to homosexuality, but in other areas where we judge each other. Why else do we get so angry?
WETTFM,
You could always go with Sally D. It's still legal for a few more months.
Mr.
Damn, TR......... If I could get to your house and was invited, Fuck Marijauna!..... Your woman is HOT!
There is tremendous ego involved in thinking that an opinion about another person's behavior is somehow pertinent to their life. It always amuses me when people volunteer the information that "I don't approve of ___ (extramarital sex, homosexuality, marijuana use, wearing furs, SUVs, PETA)." Who asked for a seal of approval, and how would they benefit from having it? I can form opinions all I like, but I should realize that they belong with me, and my acceptance or lack thereof makes little to no difference to a secure person. Whether I choose to 'condone' or 'oppose' another person's preferences and positions is sheerly a mental exercise. If a person is unable or unwilling to explore the reasons another may hold different views from his own, it certainly says more about the 'rejecter' than it does about the person he's rejecting.
The fact is: other people exist, and they are fundamentally that -- 'other,' just as all of you are to me. If we would like for others to attempt to understand our otherness, we would do well to afford them the same courtesy.
I think the danger in not being open-minded lies in that, from what I know of history, the process of dehumanizing groups of people begins with focusing on their differences, then moralizing about the differences, then objectifying the people based upon the difference. After a person becomes an object, almost any behavior toward that person is fair game.
Mrs.
The fact is: other people exist, and they are fundamentally that -- 'other,' just as all of you are to me. If we would like for others to attempt to understand our otherness, we would do well to afford them the same courtesy.
I think the danger in not being open-minded lies in that, from what I know of history, the process of dehumanizing groups of people begins with focusing on their differences, then moralizing about the differences, then objectifying the people based upon the difference. After a person becomes an object, almost any behavior toward that person is fair game.
Mrs.
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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Well said man. I say, "to each their own". In regard to your comment, "Why would someone get so mad". I for one have never had a homosexual urge, but do not judge those that do. I would like to say however, that anyone telling me that "<b>All</b> men have a homosexual fantasy" is misguided and naively bold in their presumptions. I know this is not what you are saying, but I have read other articles on the web that make this bogus claim. Anyway, I could see someone getting mad if they are told emphatically that they've experienced something they know for certain they have not. I think there have even been bi-males on this very site that have written comments in a thread that claim such bullshit.
I would like to add that, many of Sigmund Freud's theories, like any doctor's, were just that. Additionally, for abstract purposes there are always Psychologists (any professional really) who differ in opinion from their peers. Freud's analysis is not fact or law.
Just because some homosexual rights activist pulls a study showing favor to his "everyone's a homo" theory, doesn't make you a closet homo. Be wary of proven medical fact and theoretical psychology. Freud was a great doctor, but his work is not the final authority. In fact, many doctors question the validity and or opposed his theories, since the man fabricated them.
Alfred Kinsey is another doctor you should read. I think his work is interesting. Admittedly, I learned of him through the latest film they made about him, starring Liam Neison. His work pretty much affirms the fact that we can never encompass sexuality into black and white and call anything a deviancy of the norm, because there is no "norm". Kinsey's study negates any study that uses words like "all" and "every". I favor his theories, but recognize them as such. However, because they make more sense than the black and white picture that current dogmas paint.
<font color="#FF0000">you wrote:</font>
<font color="#FFFFFF">
"The fact is: other people exist, and they are fundamentally that -- 'other,' just as all of you are to me. If we would like for others to attempt to understand our otherness, we would do well to afford them the same courtesy."
</font>
One way for "others" to understand our "otherness", as you put it, <b>is</b> to express our opinion. What the person takes from it is up to them. I know that you like RAP and you know that I dislike it. You consider it a form of music, I consider it bad poetry recited over a catchy beat. You oppose the war and the reasons why we are in Iraq. I think we should conquer all the small countries that can't seem to make it on their own. I respect your views, even if I do not agree with them. I think that is a perfect example of open-mindedness. That's my opinion. LOL
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<b>-D-</b>
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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Well said man. I say, "to each their own". In regard to your comment, "Why would someone get so mad". I for one have never had a homosexual urge, but do not judge those that do. I would like to say however, that anyone telling me that "<b>All</b> men have a homosexual fantasy" is misguided and naively bold in their presumptions. I know this is not what you are saying, but I have read other articles on the web that make this bogus claim. Anyway, I could see someone getting mad if they are told emphatically that they've experienced something they know for certain they have not. I think there have even been bi-males on this very site that have written comments in a thread that claim such bullshit.
I would like to add that, many of Sigmund Freud's theories, like any doctor's, were just that. Additionally, for abstract purposes there are always Psychologists (any professional really) who differ in opinion from their peers. Freud's analysis is not fact or law.
Just because some homosexual rights activist pulls a study showing favor to his "everyone's a homo" theory, doesn't make you a closet homo. Be wary of proven medical fact and theoretical psychology. Freud was a great doctor, but his work is not the final authority. In fact, many doctors question the validity and or opposed his theories, since the man fabricated them.
Alfred Kinsey is another doctor you should read. I think his work is interesting. Admittedly, I learned of him through the latest film they made about him, starring Liam Neison. His work pretty much affirms the fact that we can never encompass sexuality into black and white and call anything a deviancy of the norm, because there is no "norm". Kinsey's study negates any study that uses words like "all" and "every". I favor his theories, but recognize them as such. However, because they make more sense than the black and white picture that current dogmas paint.
<font color="#FF0000">you wrote:</font>
<font color="#FFFFFF">
"The fact is: other people exist, and they are fundamentally that -- 'other,' just as all of you are to me. If we would like for others to attempt to understand our otherness, we would do well to afford them the same courtesy."
</font>
One way for "others" to understand our "otherness", as you put it, <b>is</b> to express our opinion. What the person takes from it is up to them. I know that you like RAP and you know that I dislike it. You consider it a form of music, I consider it bad poetry recited over a catchy beat. You oppose the war and the reasons why we are in Iraq. I think we should conquer all the small countries that can't seem to make it on their own. I respect your views, even if I do not agree with them. I think that is a perfect example of open-mindedness. That's my opinion. LOL
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<b>-D-</b>
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WE are all ONE!
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Don said...</div>
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<b>VP,</b>
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I can't vouch for GoodGenes, but I found your view articulate and elloquently conveyed. I agree with it almost 100%. I only vary slightly in my view. Not enough to warrant mention however LOL.
Oh here are a few links I thought you guys might find interesting.
http://www.swingular.com/post.php?action=view&PID=2164&TID=6
http://www.swingular.com/post.php?action=view&PID=445&TID=8
Some of these "posters" insenuate that one should be o.k. with male-to-male contact if it happens (no matter your orientation), that people are close-minded to the bisexual acts because of religious influence. I will say that I am not religious. I will also say that I don't want to suck cock or have my cock sucked by a guy. The very thought repulses me. Am I being close-minded? No! I'm just not into guys PERIOD! People that try an convince me that I am being unreasonable because I don't share their few of "The Cock" do piss me off.
This is my advice to them. Think of fucking and sucking a corpse. Now think of the disgust and repulsion you feel. That's how I feel about male homosexual acts. If you aren't wired for this activity, you aren't wired for it. PURE AND SIMPLE. If you expect everyone to accept that you were born how you are and you can't change it... Accept how we straight people are born. Oh and If you don't feel disgusted and repulsed by necrophilia... Get help.
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<b>-D-</b>
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Don said...</div>
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<b>VP,</b>
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I can't vouch for GoodGenes, but I found your view articulate and elloquently conveyed. I agree with it almost 100%. I only vary slightly in my view. Not enough to warrant mention however LOL.
Oh here are a few links I thought you guys might find interesting.
http://www.swingular.com/post.php?action=view&PID=2164&TID=6
http://www.swingular.com/post.php?action=view&PID=445&TID=8
Some of these "posters" insenuate that one should be o.k. with male-to-male contact if it happens (no matter your orientation), that people are close-minded to the bisexual acts because of religious influence. I will say that I am not religious. I will also say that I don't want to suck cock or have my cock sucked by a guy. The very thought repulses me. Am I being close-minded? No! I'm just not into guys PERIOD! People that try an convince me that I am being unreasonable because I don't share their few of "The Cock" do piss me off.
This is my advice to them. Think of fucking and sucking a corpse. Now think of the disgust and repulsion you feel. That's how I feel about male homosexual acts. If you aren't wired for this activity, you aren't wired for it. PURE AND SIMPLE. If you expect everyone to accept that you were born how you are and you can't change it... Accept how we straight people are born. Oh and If you don't feel disgusted and repulsed by necrophilia... Get help.
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<b>-D-</b>
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To all...
I (male, as always) feel that we all have our opinions about it all...
I do believe that in some way we all have had the, "I wonder" situation...NOT that they wondered IF they were bi, gay, or other, but what it would feel like or something of this ilk...I have never been attracted to men, they actually repulse me...all that hair and shit YUCK!!!!!!! BUT by the same token, as was mentioned before, having had gay/bi friends who have the feeling that everyone is bi/gay, they would mention it to me, I would decline, but at the age of 14 or 15 (late bloomer, so still pretty much a little boy physically) I would wonder what it would feel like...So, my experience dictates that if I wondered...then everyone wondered...THATS why I think that these theories exsist...IF you felt that, then everyone feels that...
Ask yourself a simple question Don, when you meet a man, do you assume he is straight? Or do you withhold that judgement until they tell you they are? Probably not, you probably assume he is straight...Unless, of course, they are one of the gay people who are so gay, they smell gay, I believe the politically incorrect way to refer to it is a flamer...HA HA HA HA HA....Have you run into someone who claims to be in the military or a vet, only to find they were not? How many people have you met who claimed to be precisely what you do in the military, only to find out they were not what you are inside the military? I, having been in the spec. ops. get a lot of people who claim the same, I ask a few simple questions, and they are dismissed as being fakes, wannabes, etc. We all, as humans, have a tendancy to want to be something or someone else...and we all make immediate assumptions....Sometimes, though, these assumptions are wrong....Find some books on intelligence analysis, and you will see what I mean...If you go to analyze something, and you have any experience with a similar place or situation, your views will be biased, when you analize it, you will seek out things that will support you, and overlook those that do not...If this happens in highly trained professional intelligence analysts, imagine what happens to the average Joe six-pack....
We all want to feel normal or average...So why would a gay/bi person feel otherwise?
Just his $0.02 although it is scattered all over the place...LOL
I (male, as always) feel that we all have our opinions about it all...
I do believe that in some way we all have had the, "I wonder" situation...NOT that they wondered IF they were bi, gay, or other, but what it would feel like or something of this ilk...I have never been attracted to men, they actually repulse me...all that hair and shit YUCK!!!!!!! BUT by the same token, as was mentioned before, having had gay/bi friends who have the feeling that everyone is bi/gay, they would mention it to me, I would decline, but at the age of 14 or 15 (late bloomer, so still pretty much a little boy physically) I would wonder what it would feel like...So, my experience dictates that if I wondered...then everyone wondered...THATS why I think that these theories exsist...IF you felt that, then everyone feels that...
Ask yourself a simple question Don, when you meet a man, do you assume he is straight? Or do you withhold that judgement until they tell you they are? Probably not, you probably assume he is straight...Unless, of course, they are one of the gay people who are so gay, they smell gay, I believe the politically incorrect way to refer to it is a flamer...HA HA HA HA HA....Have you run into someone who claims to be in the military or a vet, only to find they were not? How many people have you met who claimed to be precisely what you do in the military, only to find out they were not what you are inside the military? I, having been in the spec. ops. get a lot of people who claim the same, I ask a few simple questions, and they are dismissed as being fakes, wannabes, etc. We all, as humans, have a tendancy to want to be something or someone else...and we all make immediate assumptions....Sometimes, though, these assumptions are wrong....Find some books on intelligence analysis, and you will see what I mean...If you go to analyze something, and you have any experience with a similar place or situation, your views will be biased, when you analize it, you will seek out things that will support you, and overlook those that do not...If this happens in highly trained professional intelligence analysts, imagine what happens to the average Joe six-pack....
We all want to feel normal or average...So why would a gay/bi person feel otherwise?
Just his $0.02 although it is scattered all over the place...LOL
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Don said...</div>
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<b>JustJim72,</b>
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I don't doubt that these people want to feel "normal". Hell, what is "normal"? Just because you once wondered what something would feel like doesn't mean you want to try it or fantasize about it. I've often pondered what it would feel like to be shot through the head and live. I am not gonna try it and find out. Why? Because I'm not into shooting myself in the head. To assume that I am suicidal from my ponderance is riduculous. Just as wondering what what it would be like to keister or gobble down on a fuck frank, doesn't make you bisexual or gay. Just a few Susan B's from "The Don"
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<b>-D-</b>
<br>
P.S. I usually don't try to ascertain, let alone guess a man's sexual orientation upon meeting him, because it doesn't interest me to know such things. Just as I don't usually try to find out his political interests or what his favorite color is. I try to never "assume" anything.
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Don said...</div>
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<b>JustJim72,</b>
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I don't doubt that these people want to feel "normal". Hell, what is "normal"? Just because you once wondered what something would feel like doesn't mean you want to try it or fantasize about it. I've often pondered what it would feel like to be shot through the head and live. I am not gonna try it and find out. Why? Because I'm not into shooting myself in the head. To assume that I am suicidal from my ponderance is riduculous. Just as wondering what what it would be like to keister or gobble down on a fuck frank, doesn't make you bisexual or gay. Just a few Susan B's from "The Don"
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<b>-D-</b>
<br>
P.S. I usually don't try to ascertain, let alone guess a man's sexual orientation upon meeting him, because it doesn't interest me to know such things. Just as I don't usually try to find out his political interests or what his favorite color is. I try to never "assume" anything.
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After reading this interesting thread I was reminded of an old gay rights endorsed bumper sticker out of my home state of Oregon. It simply read,
Good call Don...Never viewed it that way...I can tell you what a bullet feels like elsewhere...but not the melon...You DO NOT wanna feel it...Hurts like hell...LOL
I guess it depends on how you define "bi" or "homosexual," but I actually think there's more going on than we know. There have been studies on "looksism" and how a person's appearance can affect how others interact with them. For example, good-looking men will generally have higher salaries than less good-looking men. Good-looking men who interview for the same position as non good-looking men will usually get the job first. There was a study a couple years ago where a mock court case was staged. The jury were the subjects. In one instance of the case, the defendant was a good-looking male. He was acquitted. When asked why they acquitted him, the jurors said "he seemed innocent." The EXACT same case was staged with the same evidence, the EXACT same words from the lawyers and judge, but with an ugly man. He was convicted. Jurors said they didn't trust him or that he "seemed" shady.
Why do we consider someone good-looking? It's all about sexual/reproductive fitness. When someone calls someone else good-looking, it generally indicates symmetry. Symmetry indicates good genetic health and reproductive fitness. For women, estrogen manifests itself in fat deposits on the chest, butt, and thighs. Men see this is "hot." What it really means is that she is reproductively fit. They put on make-up to flush their cheeks, redden their lips, and emphasize their eyes, all signs of reproductive readiness. With men, square shoulders, square jaws, deep voices, confidence, all indicate proper levels of testosterone. Why do women think a man is "good-looking"? Sexual fitness.
So, the looks studies would indicate that men are looking at other men's sexual fitness as much as women are.
To further the case, there are lots of studies on pheromones going on. Did you know that smelling the sweat of a male will excite the same parts of the brain in a homosexual male as in a heterosexual female? Heterosexual males detect pheromones from other males, too. I am aware of a study where a urinal was treated with sweat from an alpha male and the bathroom was observed for a day. Non-alphas avoided that stall, heading as far away from it as they could get. There are studies on a male to male pheromone which is different from the one that is detected by women or homosexual males.
Anecdotally, men tend to be more deferential and seek the approval of good-looking males. You see "boy crushes" all the time. I'm not saying that means they'd screw each other, but I am saying it's on the continuum. Can you honestly say you've never had a guy friend you felt that way about? I believe that almost any interaction we have with anyone is in some way sexual at its root. Programmed into our genes are the prime directives, survive and reproduce. People don't wanna believe it because they forget that we're actually animals and because we've developed fancy ways to fool ourselves into believing we're somehow different than every other lifeform we see. Kinda stupid, in my opinion.
I have no interest in having sex with men, nor have I ever felt the desire. I have to wonder, however, how much of what we are is because of social programming. It doesn't really make sense to me that so many women on this site could be biologically bi, while almost all the men would be biologically straight.
Mr.
Why do we consider someone good-looking? It's all about sexual/reproductive fitness. When someone calls someone else good-looking, it generally indicates symmetry. Symmetry indicates good genetic health and reproductive fitness. For women, estrogen manifests itself in fat deposits on the chest, butt, and thighs. Men see this is "hot." What it really means is that she is reproductively fit. They put on make-up to flush their cheeks, redden their lips, and emphasize their eyes, all signs of reproductive readiness. With men, square shoulders, square jaws, deep voices, confidence, all indicate proper levels of testosterone. Why do women think a man is "good-looking"? Sexual fitness.
So, the looks studies would indicate that men are looking at other men's sexual fitness as much as women are.
To further the case, there are lots of studies on pheromones going on. Did you know that smelling the sweat of a male will excite the same parts of the brain in a homosexual male as in a heterosexual female? Heterosexual males detect pheromones from other males, too. I am aware of a study where a urinal was treated with sweat from an alpha male and the bathroom was observed for a day. Non-alphas avoided that stall, heading as far away from it as they could get. There are studies on a male to male pheromone which is different from the one that is detected by women or homosexual males.
Anecdotally, men tend to be more deferential and seek the approval of good-looking males. You see "boy crushes" all the time. I'm not saying that means they'd screw each other, but I am saying it's on the continuum. Can you honestly say you've never had a guy friend you felt that way about? I believe that almost any interaction we have with anyone is in some way sexual at its root. Programmed into our genes are the prime directives, survive and reproduce. People don't wanna believe it because they forget that we're actually animals and because we've developed fancy ways to fool ourselves into believing we're somehow different than every other lifeform we see. Kinda stupid, in my opinion.
I have no interest in having sex with men, nor have I ever felt the desire. I have to wonder, however, how much of what we are is because of social programming. It doesn't really make sense to me that so many women on this site could be biologically bi, while almost all the men would be biologically straight.
Mr.
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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Let me play the role I play so well, Devil's advocate. LOL. I know you are thinking, <i>NO SHIT</i>. What you said was quite deep and makes a lot of sense. I too have read up and actually watched a show the discovery channel hosted, regarding the "looksism" subject. I agree that many people subconsciously favor what they consider to be "good looking".
Let me throw a couple wrenchs in. What do you consider "good looking"? You know as well as I, that I can post a million different "fetish" sites up here with different subjects as the object of desire. For example, BBW, Senior Citizens, Barely Legal, midgets, Animals etc. Each site with thousands to millions of members.
I agree that your sexuality like many facets of you are influenced or a product of your environment. Could this surge in Bi-sexual women be a product of what is consider "cool". With the decline in marriages and more emphasis on gay rights and sexual revolution, low self-esteem teens, with gay friends now getting more positive attention. It's now cool to be gay to a lot of people. Some people, otherwise talentless lops of shit, have even gained stardom or celebrity from it (Rosie O'Donnel).
I think my son is a good looking boy and my daughter a beautiful girl. I think many guys are hansome guys. Granted, these assessments maybe the social norm of what is perceived as genetically superior, but what does facial structure (aesthetics) have to do with genetic superiority? I can see larger hips in women or stronger muscles in men, but what does a chiseled face or a love for creamy white skin in women (in my case) have to do with genetics superiority have to do with genetic superiority. Dark skin and dark eyes are actually genetically superior because it helps stave off the sun. Large nasal passages help breathing, larger ears help one to hear better etc. Darker skinned races are actually "stronger" genetically. None of these traits fit your model.
I think you are partially right in that some of the aesthetic qualities playing a key role in why society decide things. Is it ever homosexual in nature? Yes, if a homosexual or bi-sexual is involved. Are we "all" capable of becoming bi-sexual? I'm still not convinced. When I ask inwardly, the answer comes back with a shudder.... No. LOL
I like thicker women. In fact I cringe at what is considered mainstream beautiful these days. Rail skinny, no tits, no ass. It sickens me actually. However, I have several friends that adore this look in women. Many societies view males with a femine appearance as good looking as the norm (Japan). The androgynous look is very popular there.
I think many societies in history and the present, that have become advanced in their philosphical views and have accepted sexual promiscuity as a social norm, become desensitized to normal reproductive version of sexual intercourse, with regard to it's "excitability" or sexual draw. I think people looking for excitement in their dulled sex lives are influenced by their surroundings. People, objects, places, and their associations with the sexual centers of our brains. To say that we are all draw to the same sexual desires and are "teetering on the brink" of homosexuality, is just as false as saying we are teetering on the brink of bestiality or necrophelia.
I think the "sexuality seeds" are sewn when we are young. I think any deviation from our personal norm is a product of self-esteem and the willingness and want to be accepted in a group of peers. I think if you are homosexual or bi-sexual, you know it as soon as a straight person becomes aware of an attraction to the opposite sex.
I can honestly say that I have never been, sexually attracted to another man, dog, corpse, foot, fecel matter, vomit, etc. You mentioned freud earlier. He also asserted that all males have a natural attraction to their mothers. That many men will look for traits in other women, that they see in their mothers. Does this mean you are attracted or know quality when you see it? Because you like a big ass like your mamma had, does this mean you like your mamma's big ass??? Hell no! It may stem from your mamma havin a big ass and twelve kids and you associated big asses with kids, but that doesn't prove your mammas ass is an object of your sexual desire. If that were true, why does any thought of my mother kill my libido??
Do I think sometimes people suffer from a warped perception or associations that are far from the "reproductive norm". Yes!!! sexually driven serial killers and other sexual predators prove this.
I think sexuality is a large gradient/gamut like like that of a color wheel where "reproductive sex" is in the middle and you have all of these different flavors of what drives a person to sexual release. You have some that deviate only slightly then you have monsters that do horrible shit. I think anything is sexually acceptable, as long as it's consentual between all adult parties involved. Anyway, I am rambling. LOL
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<b>-D-</b>
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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Let me play the role I play so well, Devil's advocate. LOL. I know you are thinking, <i>NO SHIT</i>. What you said was quite deep and makes a lot of sense. I too have read up and actually watched a show the discovery channel hosted, regarding the "looksism" subject. I agree that many people subconsciously favor what they consider to be "good looking".
Let me throw a couple wrenchs in. What do you consider "good looking"? You know as well as I, that I can post a million different "fetish" sites up here with different subjects as the object of desire. For example, BBW, Senior Citizens, Barely Legal, midgets, Animals etc. Each site with thousands to millions of members.
I agree that your sexuality like many facets of you are influenced or a product of your environment. Could this surge in Bi-sexual women be a product of what is consider "cool". With the decline in marriages and more emphasis on gay rights and sexual revolution, low self-esteem teens, with gay friends now getting more positive attention. It's now cool to be gay to a lot of people. Some people, otherwise talentless lops of shit, have even gained stardom or celebrity from it (Rosie O'Donnel).
I think my son is a good looking boy and my daughter a beautiful girl. I think many guys are hansome guys. Granted, these assessments maybe the social norm of what is perceived as genetically superior, but what does facial structure (aesthetics) have to do with genetic superiority? I can see larger hips in women or stronger muscles in men, but what does a chiseled face or a love for creamy white skin in women (in my case) have to do with genetics superiority have to do with genetic superiority. Dark skin and dark eyes are actually genetically superior because it helps stave off the sun. Large nasal passages help breathing, larger ears help one to hear better etc. Darker skinned races are actually "stronger" genetically. None of these traits fit your model.
I think you are partially right in that some of the aesthetic qualities playing a key role in why society decide things. Is it ever homosexual in nature? Yes, if a homosexual or bi-sexual is involved. Are we "all" capable of becoming bi-sexual? I'm still not convinced. When I ask inwardly, the answer comes back with a shudder.... No. LOL
I like thicker women. In fact I cringe at what is considered mainstream beautiful these days. Rail skinny, no tits, no ass. It sickens me actually. However, I have several friends that adore this look in women. Many societies view males with a femine appearance as good looking as the norm (Japan). The androgynous look is very popular there.
I think many societies in history and the present, that have become advanced in their philosphical views and have accepted sexual promiscuity as a social norm, become desensitized to normal reproductive version of sexual intercourse, with regard to it's "excitability" or sexual draw. I think people looking for excitement in their dulled sex lives are influenced by their surroundings. People, objects, places, and their associations with the sexual centers of our brains. To say that we are all draw to the same sexual desires and are "teetering on the brink" of homosexuality, is just as false as saying we are teetering on the brink of bestiality or necrophelia.
I think the "sexuality seeds" are sewn when we are young. I think any deviation from our personal norm is a product of self-esteem and the willingness and want to be accepted in a group of peers. I think if you are homosexual or bi-sexual, you know it as soon as a straight person becomes aware of an attraction to the opposite sex.
I can honestly say that I have never been, sexually attracted to another man, dog, corpse, foot, fecel matter, vomit, etc. You mentioned freud earlier. He also asserted that all males have a natural attraction to their mothers. That many men will look for traits in other women, that they see in their mothers. Does this mean you are attracted or know quality when you see it? Because you like a big ass like your mamma had, does this mean you like your mamma's big ass??? Hell no! It may stem from your mamma havin a big ass and twelve kids and you associated big asses with kids, but that doesn't prove your mammas ass is an object of your sexual desire. If that were true, why does any thought of my mother kill my libido??
Do I think sometimes people suffer from a warped perception or associations that are far from the "reproductive norm". Yes!!! sexually driven serial killers and other sexual predators prove this.
I think sexuality is a large gradient/gamut like like that of a color wheel where "reproductive sex" is in the middle and you have all of these different flavors of what drives a person to sexual release. You have some that deviate only slightly then you have monsters that do horrible shit. I think anything is sexually acceptable, as long as it's consentual between all adult parties involved. Anyway, I am rambling. LOL
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<b>-D-</b>
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Great points being made all the way around, I guess I would say every person has a line that they will not cross. I can be open minded about a variety of things. I prefer wakeboarding over slalom skiing, I used to ski alot, but now it is all board....I can be open to the fact that someone else is the other way around, I don't understand it but oh well. But if some lame fucker wants to kneeboard...well he is not gonna do it behind my boat!!
OK, I am kidding to a point here, but there is no real way to be completey open minded. And we should not be, there are some things that are just wrong wrong wrong, pedophilia, snuff films, wearing white after labor day.....whatever. If you are more open minded about something than somebody else, you have to be ready for the ramifications of other peoples boundaries ands limits.
I would never, let me repeat NEVER think that it is OK for a 50 year old man to marry a 12 yo girl. call me a closed minded prick, I am OK with it in this instance. I think so many people try to hard to not judge and be open minded, but then your values and beliefs very well get trampled. Some things you just have to hold dear and never budge, and it is different for everyone, that is the beauty of life.
I hunt and eat meat...don't like it? piss off!!
I don't suck dick....if you do good for you, don't really care, won't be joining you.
I think pedophiles are sick.........Look at my kids funny, I will rip your arms out of their sockets and beat you to death with them
I love to go to the gym, do triathlons, bike....you may like to sit on the couch and eat fried chicken.....cool have fun.
OK, I am kidding to a point here, but there is no real way to be completey open minded. And we should not be, there are some things that are just wrong wrong wrong, pedophilia, snuff films, wearing white after labor day.....whatever. If you are more open minded about something than somebody else, you have to be ready for the ramifications of other peoples boundaries ands limits.
I would never, let me repeat NEVER think that it is OK for a 50 year old man to marry a 12 yo girl. call me a closed minded prick, I am OK with it in this instance. I think so many people try to hard to not judge and be open minded, but then your values and beliefs very well get trampled. Some things you just have to hold dear and never budge, and it is different for everyone, that is the beauty of life.
I hunt and eat meat...don't like it? piss off!!
I don't suck dick....if you do good for you, don't really care, won't be joining you.
I think pedophiles are sick.........Look at my kids funny, I will rip your arms out of their sockets and beat you to death with them
I love to go to the gym, do triathlons, bike....you may like to sit on the couch and eat fried chicken.....cool have fun.
And back 'round to Robin's barn here.
So we all agree that we have the right to have our own opinions. Correct? But do we have the right, as such "sexually liberated" beings, to make a segment of our "sexual society" feel unwanted, unwelcome or threatened?
I'll use the example of both the Bi-male and the Straight Female (although I've not yet heard anyone at a party speak threateningly of the Straight Female segment in general). I'm glad that people are willing to speak their minds. I welcome that. And I'm glad they feel the freedom to exercise that freedom to decide not to play with Bi-males. But to just get ugly about it?
I'm sorry...I keep my mouth shut out of respect to their opinion. It certainly does, however, tell me a lot about their character. I suppose that's my point then.
If I don't like it, don't play with them. Right? Just as they're choosing to do? Out of principal? However what if I like that person on other levels. What if their personality has other redeeming qualities that outweigh that particular "problem" in my eyes.
Ahh...that is the rub.
I see them as being close-minded in that particular aspect, and to me it's a big deal breaker. So, I personally fall into dilemma.
I usually don't suffer in silence on many topics. But rarely have I seen a topic so charged with venom so unnecessarily. If you don't want to play with Bi-men or Straight women...state that and leave it. Please!
No need to go on and on and on ... hehehe.
-K_T
So we all agree that we have the right to have our own opinions. Correct? But do we have the right, as such "sexually liberated" beings, to make a segment of our "sexual society" feel unwanted, unwelcome or threatened?
I'll use the example of both the Bi-male and the Straight Female (although I've not yet heard anyone at a party speak threateningly of the Straight Female segment in general). I'm glad that people are willing to speak their minds. I welcome that. And I'm glad they feel the freedom to exercise that freedom to decide not to play with Bi-males. But to just get ugly about it?
I'm sorry...I keep my mouth shut out of respect to their opinion. It certainly does, however, tell me a lot about their character. I suppose that's my point then.
If I don't like it, don't play with them. Right? Just as they're choosing to do? Out of principal? However what if I like that person on other levels. What if their personality has other redeeming qualities that outweigh that particular "problem" in my eyes.
Ahh...that is the rub.
I see them as being close-minded in that particular aspect, and to me it's a big deal breaker. So, I personally fall into dilemma.
I usually don't suffer in silence on many topics. But rarely have I seen a topic so charged with venom so unnecessarily. If you don't want to play with Bi-men or Straight women...state that and leave it. Please!
No need to go on and on and on ... hehehe.
-K_T
TR,
<em>Let me play the role I play so well, Devil's advocate.</em>
I wouldn't have it any other way.
<em>What do you consider "good looking"? ... but what does facial structure (aesthetics) have to do with genetic superiority? I can see larger hips in women or stronger muscles in men, but what does a chiseled face or a love for creamy white skin in women (in my case) have to do with genetics superiority have to do with genetic superiority.</em>
Well, it all goes back to natural selection. Natural selection can also be called "sexual selection" for organisms who sexually reproduce. The idea is that organisms with traits that allow them to survive long enough to sexually reproduce in such a way that their offspring can reproduce are "selected." Hominids millions of years ago who were genetically predisposed to "like" symmetry were more likely to survive than hominids who had no such predisposition. The theories are the same for why the flower is universally attractive to humans. Flowers are often near food. Those who were attracted to that smell would've found food and lived long enough to pass on that genetic trait. Why does shit or rot smell repulsive to us? Well, because those hominids who had a distaste for that smell would not attempt to eat it, would not have died, and would have lived to pass on those genes. Humans who have been free from disease are much more likely to be bilaterally symmetrical. Some information on that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty (I hate always referring to wiki, but it's the quickest way to find shit).
Testosterone and estrogen are about virility. Hominid females with predispositions to look for bone length and muscle mass would have paired up with a virile male and they will conceive. Hominid males predisposed to look for tits 'n' ass would've found a fertile woman who would conceive and produce offspring. Those sexual traits are innate.
So, health and fertility are what "looks" are all about. Granted, there are specializations on top of that. Environmental factors definitely *do* come into play.
<em>You know as well as I, that I can post a million different "fetish" sites up here with different subjects as the object of desire. For example, BBW, Senior Citizens, Barely Legal, midgets, Animals etc. Each site with thousands to millions of members ... I agree that your sexuality like many facets of you are influenced or a product of your environment.</em>
I think that there is a baseline of what humans consider "good-looking," which I've described above. Your examples of specialized traits are probably environmental, as you mentioned.
<em>Could this surge in Bi-sexual women be a product of what is consider "cool". With the decline in marriages and more emphasis on gay rights and sexual revolution, low self-esteem teens, with gay friends now getting more positive attention. It's now cool to be gay to a lot of people. Some people, otherwise talentless lops of shit, have even gained stardom or celebrity from it (Rosie O'Donnel).</em>
Well, I think acceptance is probably more likely the reason (at least for the most part). Natural curiosity is probably the driving force and social acceptance allows for more opportunities to explore.
But I think "coolness" is definitely the reason women at dance clubs pretend to be lesbians.
As far as homosexuality, there's pretty ample proof that it isn't a choice. I talked the pheromone studies in my last post. Once again, it comes down to chemistry. Certain chemical releases in fetal development bind at receptor sites which cause development of male genitalia and gender identity. Deviations in this process will result in different development.
Side note: There are recent studies that indicate that the more male children a woman has, the more likely they are to be homosexual. Can't find the article at the moment. Here's a related link: http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060701/fob1.asp. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I believe by the 4th male child, the likelihood is supposed to be getting up to 100%. With the LDS's stance on having large families, I'd suspect this may be why there is such a large gay community in the LDS church.
<em>Are we "all" capable of becoming bi-sexual? I'm still not convinced ... To say that we are all draw to the same sexual desires and are "teetering on the brink" of homosexuality, is just as false as saying we are teetering on the brink of bestiality or necrophelia.
I think the "sexuality seeds" are sewn when we are young. I think any deviation from our personal norm is a product of self-esteem and the willingness and want to be accepted in a group of peers. I think if you are homosexual or bi-sexual, you know it as soon as a straight person becomes aware of an attraction to the opposite sex. </em>
I'm not saying that everyone is "teetering on the brink" of anything because I don't think it's an all-or-nothing prospect. Ask any of the women on this site how often they want to have sex with other women vs. men and they'll probably each give you a different answer. I don't think it's gay, bi, or straight. I think we're all somewhere on that continuum based on a combination of genetics and societal acceptance. My guess will be that in 20 years sexuality will be different for men.
CNKISS,
I totally agree that we've all got absolute ideas about what's right or wrong and I would never suggest that open-mindedness means forsaking your own values. To me, open-mindedness is about respect, humility, and security. Respecting the fact that other people's experiences are as valid to them as mine are to me. Humility to realize that I don't and can't know all the answers. And the security not to be challenged when someone's opinion differs from mine.
Mr.
<em>Let me play the role I play so well, Devil's advocate.</em>
I wouldn't have it any other way.
<em>What do you consider "good looking"? ... but what does facial structure (aesthetics) have to do with genetic superiority? I can see larger hips in women or stronger muscles in men, but what does a chiseled face or a love for creamy white skin in women (in my case) have to do with genetics superiority have to do with genetic superiority.</em>
Well, it all goes back to natural selection. Natural selection can also be called "sexual selection" for organisms who sexually reproduce. The idea is that organisms with traits that allow them to survive long enough to sexually reproduce in such a way that their offspring can reproduce are "selected." Hominids millions of years ago who were genetically predisposed to "like" symmetry were more likely to survive than hominids who had no such predisposition. The theories are the same for why the flower is universally attractive to humans. Flowers are often near food. Those who were attracted to that smell would've found food and lived long enough to pass on that genetic trait. Why does shit or rot smell repulsive to us? Well, because those hominids who had a distaste for that smell would not attempt to eat it, would not have died, and would have lived to pass on those genes. Humans who have been free from disease are much more likely to be bilaterally symmetrical. Some information on that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty (I hate always referring to wiki, but it's the quickest way to find shit).
Testosterone and estrogen are about virility. Hominid females with predispositions to look for bone length and muscle mass would have paired up with a virile male and they will conceive. Hominid males predisposed to look for tits 'n' ass would've found a fertile woman who would conceive and produce offspring. Those sexual traits are innate.
So, health and fertility are what "looks" are all about. Granted, there are specializations on top of that. Environmental factors definitely *do* come into play.
<em>You know as well as I, that I can post a million different "fetish" sites up here with different subjects as the object of desire. For example, BBW, Senior Citizens, Barely Legal, midgets, Animals etc. Each site with thousands to millions of members ... I agree that your sexuality like many facets of you are influenced or a product of your environment.</em>
I think that there is a baseline of what humans consider "good-looking," which I've described above. Your examples of specialized traits are probably environmental, as you mentioned.
<em>Could this surge in Bi-sexual women be a product of what is consider "cool". With the decline in marriages and more emphasis on gay rights and sexual revolution, low self-esteem teens, with gay friends now getting more positive attention. It's now cool to be gay to a lot of people. Some people, otherwise talentless lops of shit, have even gained stardom or celebrity from it (Rosie O'Donnel).</em>
Well, I think acceptance is probably more likely the reason (at least for the most part). Natural curiosity is probably the driving force and social acceptance allows for more opportunities to explore.
But I think "coolness" is definitely the reason women at dance clubs pretend to be lesbians.
As far as homosexuality, there's pretty ample proof that it isn't a choice. I talked the pheromone studies in my last post. Once again, it comes down to chemistry. Certain chemical releases in fetal development bind at receptor sites which cause development of male genitalia and gender identity. Deviations in this process will result in different development.
Side note: There are recent studies that indicate that the more male children a woman has, the more likely they are to be homosexual. Can't find the article at the moment. Here's a related link: http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060701/fob1.asp. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I believe by the 4th male child, the likelihood is supposed to be getting up to 100%. With the LDS's stance on having large families, I'd suspect this may be why there is such a large gay community in the LDS church.
<em>Are we "all" capable of becoming bi-sexual? I'm still not convinced ... To say that we are all draw to the same sexual desires and are "teetering on the brink" of homosexuality, is just as false as saying we are teetering on the brink of bestiality or necrophelia.
I think the "sexuality seeds" are sewn when we are young. I think any deviation from our personal norm is a product of self-esteem and the willingness and want to be accepted in a group of peers. I think if you are homosexual or bi-sexual, you know it as soon as a straight person becomes aware of an attraction to the opposite sex. </em>
I'm not saying that everyone is "teetering on the brink" of anything because I don't think it's an all-or-nothing prospect. Ask any of the women on this site how often they want to have sex with other women vs. men and they'll probably each give you a different answer. I don't think it's gay, bi, or straight. I think we're all somewhere on that continuum based on a combination of genetics and societal acceptance. My guess will be that in 20 years sexuality will be different for men.
CNKISS,
I totally agree that we've all got absolute ideas about what's right or wrong and I would never suggest that open-mindedness means forsaking your own values. To me, open-mindedness is about respect, humility, and security. Respecting the fact that other people's experiences are as valid to them as mine are to me. Humility to realize that I don't and can't know all the answers. And the security not to be challenged when someone's opinion differs from mine.
Mr.
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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I think this discussion has become a matter of semantics. I think we are agreeing on quite a bit of our views. I think our views on aesthetics and other pleasures of the senses vary, but I think because we are all in the dark with this, we can appreciate all the views regarding this matter as they shed light in more than a straightforward "black and white" manner. I really dig you views bro. I tend to side a little more with the artsy, but I think science of nature in of itself, art.
<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>CNKISS,</b></font>
I agree with you too. I think you can only personally accept or be "open-minded" about so much without compomising your own morals and or beliefs. I think GoodGenes said it best when he said that sometimes it doesn't matter if we accept things or not. Swinging proves that one. LOL
<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>KT,</b></font>
I don't believe anyone should judge consentual legal adult parties in partaking in any desire that is not detrimental to non-paricipating parties. Something in the privacy of you home shouldn't do this. I think the government has absolutely no right to deem what is fit in the privacy of your bedroom, it should never be aloud in legislature. I am "closed-minded" to that. Fuck nosey religious groups that try and force their fuckin dogma on everyone else. Makes me wanna fuckin punch someone. LOL
<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>VP,</b></font>
That which does not kill you....
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<b>-D-</b>
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Don said...</div>
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<b>GG,</b>
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I think this discussion has become a matter of semantics. I think we are agreeing on quite a bit of our views. I think our views on aesthetics and other pleasures of the senses vary, but I think because we are all in the dark with this, we can appreciate all the views regarding this matter as they shed light in more than a straightforward "black and white" manner. I really dig you views bro. I tend to side a little more with the artsy, but I think science of nature in of itself, art.
<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>CNKISS,</b></font>
I agree with you too. I think you can only personally accept or be "open-minded" about so much without compomising your own morals and or beliefs. I think GoodGenes said it best when he said that sometimes it doesn't matter if we accept things or not. Swinging proves that one. LOL
<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>KT,</b></font>
I don't believe anyone should judge consentual legal adult parties in partaking in any desire that is not detrimental to non-paricipating parties. Something in the privacy of you home shouldn't do this. I think the government has absolutely no right to deem what is fit in the privacy of your bedroom, it should never be aloud in legislature. I am "closed-minded" to that. Fuck nosey religious groups that try and force their fuckin dogma on everyone else. Makes me wanna fuckin punch someone. LOL
<font color="#FFFFFF"><b>VP,</b></font>
That which does not kill you....
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<b>-D-</b>
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Don said...</div>
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<b>LANDS,</b>
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Click this link:
http://www.swingular.com/post.php?action=create&type=post&TID=8&PID=
This should start a new topic in the "Lifestyle Questions" forum.
For future reference, when you logon to the site. Choose the <b>"features"</b> button on the main menu, then choose <b>"forums" </b> on that menu. From there, choose the which forum is appropriate for what subject is. Then click the <b>"New Topic"</b> button in the upper right area of the list of threads of that section. Hope this helps.
Here is a link to the main forum section:
http://www.swingular.com/forum.php
This link below is a direct link the the "Lifestyle Questions" forum.
http://www.swingular.com/topic.php?TID=8
Notice the <b>"New Topic"</b> button on the right? That is how you start a topic in this particular section. This applies to all of the sections. All you have to do is navigate to them from the main forum page. I hope this tutorial is clear. If not, let me know.
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<b>-D-</b>
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Don said...</div>
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<p style="color: #F9F5F6; margin-left:0.5cm; margin-right:0.5cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 100%; line-height: 120%">
<b>LANDS,</b>
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Click this link:
http://www.swingular.com/post.php?action=create&type=post&TID=8&PID=
This should start a new topic in the "Lifestyle Questions" forum.
For future reference, when you logon to the site. Choose the <b>"features"</b> button on the main menu, then choose <b>"forums" </b> on that menu. From there, choose the which forum is appropriate for what subject is. Then click the <b>"New Topic"</b> button in the upper right area of the list of threads of that section. Hope this helps.
Here is a link to the main forum section:
http://www.swingular.com/forum.php
This link below is a direct link the the "Lifestyle Questions" forum.
http://www.swingular.com/topic.php?TID=8
Notice the <b>"New Topic"</b> button on the right? That is how you start a topic in this particular section. This applies to all of the sections. All you have to do is navigate to them from the main forum page. I hope this tutorial is clear. If not, let me know.
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<b>-D-</b>
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Wow what a wonderful discussion. A variety of attitudes of love and bigotry all under one umbrella....open mindedness to me seems to equate more to acceptance of things not necessarily to our liking...what it all boils down to me is simply a personality which is spiritual, not religious...whereby they can think and accept or reject the challenge of thoughts different from our own, WITHOUT judgment....