Hi everyone,
What are you all doing to manage COVID risk while remaining active? We are getting anxious to play, but want to be very careful.
So, what do we do? Is it appropriate to get tested while requesting that other couples also be tested?
Looking for advice, and not a political debate as to the pathogenicity of SARS-COV-2.
What are you all doing to manage COVID risk while remaining active? We are getting anxious to play, but want to be very careful.
So, what do we do? Is it appropriate to get tested while requesting that other couples also be tested?
Looking for advice, and not a political debate as to the pathogenicity of SARS-COV-2.
So much we still don't know about this virus and the incubation period, etc.. Also, false negatives and positives are still, sadly, a reality at this point in time. The Gov. of Ohio tested positive and then tested negative. *shrug*
(But we feel ya about the whole "getting anxious" part.)
(But we feel ya about the whole "getting anxious" part.)
We'd almost be willing to bet we had it back in January. I, the hubby, have very mild asthma, but when I got sick I was sucking on my inhaler like candy. That being said we also won't get tested because theres too many weird things happening with the virus. We will play if we are not sick. Its hard to tell right now because its allergy season(harvest) for both of us. I think its just up to the people involved if they want to take the risk or not. Qe also are the type of people that won't crucify others if their opinions don't match ours
Yeah sadly I've decided to just put playing on hold. As fun as it is, it is not worth risking my health or the health of others so I can have some fun! Hopefully soon we will have a vaccine that works how we need it to.
We just keep a canary in the front of our house. We use it like the miners used to do that were afraid of underground gases. If the bird dies when guests enter, we don't get involved. If the bird keeps singing, we relax and have a good evening.
To us...it’s better to be safe than sorry. This whole nofundemic has really made us take a step back in the LS and simply appreciate each other more sexually than ever. We are not bored and in no hurry to meet others and risk our health and safety with so many variables and unknowns.
To each their own...we wish all good luck.
Cheers,
Somewherentime
To each their own...we wish all good luck.
Cheers,
Somewherentime
SexyPowSkiers wrote:SOMEWHERENTIME wrote:
To us...it’s better to be safe than sorry. This whole nofundemic has really made us take a step back in the LS and simply appreciate each other more sexually than ever. We are not bored and in no hurry to meet others and risk our health and safety with so many variables and unknowns.
Ditto. We really hate to put off meeting new people. That bothers us the most, but there are too many variables and others to be respected. It will take a proven vaccine eventually.
We are living monogamously, probably until there is a vaccine, and we have received it.
Personally, we aren't TERRIBLY afraid of getting the virus but we DO have family members who are in very high-risk categories and we would never forgive ourselves if we somehow infected them. Besides, the virus can completely take away your sense of taste and smell...for MONTHS! THAT is a risk that we just aren't willing to take because...
Where does one find this "Magical Canary"? It seems that our last one was eaten by the Cat!
I am in the critical care field and have cared for many Covid pt. I have also gotten Covid and transmitted it to my family. This is a very real and infectious virus that has contributed to the death of many. However in my limited experience I have gained less and less concern for the virus as a whole. My family did very well. Including my mother in law who has severe asthma. There are exceptions to every rule in humanity however, in general if you have hypertension, liver disease, and obesity stay weary of the virus. It many not bode well for you. Ppl w /Low immune systems are also at risk. The rest will likely have fever/chills, fatigue and cold symptoms. I’m not a doctor and am only speaking from my limited experience so please no haters. If you want to argue jump on another forum. As far as the loss of taste and smell that is very real. Coffee tasted like crap for months. However I did gain a superhuman power due to this virus. My sense of smell in relation to sulfur/vomit/necrotizing fasciitis and lower GI bleeds have greatly diminished. I feel unstoppable now! 🤢🤮👃🏽 🤣😂
This is Wes
This is Wes
Until recently we had decided to not meet up with anyone at all. Now it kind of comes down to priorities, and meeting with anyone beyond family is rare. If we ever find a babysitter we like, there are quite a few things we would rather do together than meet with a new couple or go to a party.
The swinging hobby/lifestyle just isn't high enough on our list of priorities. Maybe we will bump into you all in the mountains or lakes.
The swinging hobby/lifestyle just isn't high enough on our list of priorities. Maybe we will bump into you all in the mountains or lakes.
We have been tested and its negative we are wanting to play but want the person or couple to be sure they aren't sick as we need to be safe always
We are all about safety. We are cautious when we go out, we always wear masks, wash our hands like crazy and I am sick of hand sanitizer. We meet friends and some other couples we are confident have similar practices. However, I am also a person that looks at statistics. If you look at Utah, here is how it breaks down assuming a population of 3,200,000 people
1.3% of population has tested positive so far based on 555,391 tests
0.01% of the population have died
91.8% of deaths are from high risk people. As a % of population, that is .0095%
71.8% of deaths are of people over 65.
I am not high risk, I am under 65. Can I get sick & have long term health issues or die from the disease? Absolutely.
As a motorcycle rider, the average death per 100,000 registered motorcycles is .06%
My point is, everybody has to develop their own risk profile. I have been in the military, flown powered paraglider’s, scuba dive, travel around the world in Third World countries. So, I tend to have a higher risk profile and acceptance than most people. Having said that, I still practice safety with COVID-19!
1.3% of population has tested positive so far based on 555,391 tests
0.01% of the population have died
91.8% of deaths are from high risk people. As a % of population, that is .0095%
71.8% of deaths are of people over 65.
I am not high risk, I am under 65. Can I get sick & have long term health issues or die from the disease? Absolutely.
As a motorcycle rider, the average death per 100,000 registered motorcycles is .06%
My point is, everybody has to develop their own risk profile. I have been in the military, flown powered paraglider’s, scuba dive, travel around the world in Third World countries. So, I tend to have a higher risk profile and acceptance than most people. Having said that, I still practice safety with COVID-19!
We personally feel it is about choice. If you aren't comfortable with meeting people or have concerns about the virus, then you shouldn't meet. If you aren't worried then feel free to meet up. We are more concerned with other diseases 
!
!Lol! Totally agree!
Wanderlustduo said: " Coffee tasted like crap for months."
Okay, that right THERE is a complete dealbreaker for us! We're gonna go hide out in our bunker until a vaccine is available!
Okay, that right THERE is a complete dealbreaker for us! We're gonna go hide out in our bunker until a vaccine is available!
EVILDOERS wrote:
Wanderlustduo said: " Coffee tasted like crap for months."
Okay, that right THERE is a complete dealbreaker for us! We're gonna go hide out in our bunker until a vaccine is available!
😂🤣 Even Irish cream couldn’t help. But now things are looking brighter!
Nakkidfun said
“ everybody has to develop their own risk profile.”
That is my sentiments exactly. 👊🏼👍🏻
“ everybody has to develop their own risk profile.”
That is my sentiments exactly. 👊🏼👍🏻
Wanderlustduo wrote:EVILDOERS wrote:
Wanderlustduo said: " Coffee tasted like crap for months."
Okay, that right THERE is a complete dealbreaker for us! We're gonna go hide out in our bunker until a vaccine is available!
😂🤣 Even Irish cream couldn’t help. But now things are looking brighter!
Just discussed it with Ms. Evil and we agreed that we MIGHT be able to survive (barely) one day without coffee not tasting good. But we would likely have to compensate with LOTS of nasty sex...and/or be in a medically induced coma or something.
Bunnies wrote:
Hi everyone,
What are you all doing to manage COVID risk while remaining active? We are getting anxious to play, but want to be very careful.
So, what do we do? Is it appropriate to get tested while requesting that other couples also be tested?
Looking for advice, and not a political debate as to the pathogenicity of SARS-COV-2.
we attend smaller orgies
EVILDOERS wrote:Wanderlustduo wrote:
[quote=EVILDOERS]Wanderlustduo said: " Coffee tasted like crap for months."
Okay, that right THERE is a complete dealbreaker for us! We're gonna go hide out in our bunker until a vaccine is available!
😂🤣 Even Irish cream couldn’t help. But now things are looking brighter!
Just discussed it with Ms. Evil and we agreed that we MIGHT be able to survive (barely) one day without coffee not tasting good. But we would likely have to compensate with LOTS of nasty sex...and/or be in a medically induced coma or something.
[/quote]Hilarious!!! This made me laugh in real life! I’m going to make sure the hubs sees this! I believe he would agree with your sentiments!
Hey we are in Tennessee and wondering if anyone knows of any adult theaters
NPDP99 wrote:
Hey we are in Tennessee and wondering if anyone knows of any adult theaters
You've come to the right place. If there's ANYTHING that swingers in Utah are knowledgable about it's adult theaters in Tennessee!
NPDP99 wrote:
Hey we are in Tennessee and wondering if anyone knows of any adult theaters
these forums never cease to amaze me
Well the covid isn’t that bad. There were a few days that coffee tasted good even some days you could taste and smell. So if you’re lungs do not burst and you can withstand the headache in a cpl months your good to go
Bunnies wrote:
Hi everyone,
What are you all doing to manage COVID risk while remaining active? We are getting anxious to play, but want to be very careful.
So, what do we do? Is it appropriate to get tested while requesting that other couples also be tested?
Looking for advice, and not a political debate as to the pathogenicity of SARS-COV-2.
I assume if you’re this worried about COVID that you must also require that your play partners have had a seasonal flu vaccination right ? 🙄🤷🏼♀️
Risking it... Thw Lifestyle always has risks...
Just as an aside (and out of morbid curiosity), how many are okay risking COVID by meeting and/or playing without masks but insist on using condoms when fucking other people recreationally? I'm trying to get a handle on how Utah swingers assess health risks in the lifestyle. 
EVILDOERS wrote:
...fucking other people recreationally?
What other forms of fucking there are? Is this another Utah thing?
SUENDAN wrote:EVILDOERS wrote:
...fucking other people recreationally?
What other forms of fucking there are? Is this another Utah thing?
I wanted to delineate between literal fucking (the fun kind) and figurative fucking...like our politicians routinely do to us.
We would enjoy the benefits of physical intimacy with others regardless, except most everyone seems to fear naked old aged people more than they do the virus. Not much we can do about that.
We've enjoyed our pandemic monogamy. Sexual home cooking is still our favorite form of sexual expression. Still, my darling wife was recently writhing and grinding, and enjoying multiple orgasms, while riding on top of me, and I thought about how much we both enjoy sharing each other and our passions with others. In the afterglow, we talked about how a while back, some of our more frequent and favorite playmates moved away to California and Colorado. We talked a bit about risk, and we talked about considered just calling it a day and forgetting about swinging. No, neither one of us really wanted to just stop. We did decide, what we both really wanted, and considering where we are in life, what would actually work, would be different than what we had been doing in the past. So, we changed the "What We're Looking For" section of our profile to reflect our desires. It may be sometime before we are going to re-open our bodies to non-monogamous adventures, but, time passes quickly and solutions are in play to make the adventure somewhat safer than it might be in 2020.
Losing sense if taste would definitely be a shame. LOL
Deedub70 wrote:
Losing sense if taste would definitely be a shame. LOL
It sure would.
HYM4CYN wrote:
We would enjoy the benefits of physical intimacy with others regardless, except most everyone seems to fear naked old aged people more than they do the virus. Not much we can do about that.
Omg, that comment made me laugh so hard. I'm not afraid of either.
With U.S. infections soaring to record highs this week...guess it’s back to “zoom swinging” again. 😂
GLTA
GLTA
Mrs. Delicious just left the clinic she worked in for the last 7 years, and is now working in a clinic within a hospital. So, she is already subjected to a bit more risk. I work part of the time in a semi self employed occupation in finance, where it's pretty easy to remain socially distanced, and I also have a job where I get involved in some EMS first response, I get involved in rescues, at altitude, and sometimes I deal with people that are extremely intoxicated, and therefore overly friendly, or belligerent, and therefore they tend to ignor personal spacing, let alone social distancing, and all of these activities put me a bit more at risk too. We both own a plethora of mask. We take what we do seriously. We take our family life, with kids and grand kids, even more seriously. Family is our number one priority. Our family, and our professions, rightfully expect us to avoid risk as much as possible, so that we don't put our family members, or the people we serve professionally at risk. So for us no, we are not going to venture out hooking up while the virus is in full spike mode. For us it would be selfish and unprofessional and frankly violate a code of ethics we are expected, and have agreed to live up to. In any case, our sex together is well practiced and extremely satisfying. Waiting isn't an unbearable burden. How people respond to our decision is a tell, as to whether or not, we will want to pursue anything with them, once we venture back out and start to hook up again. We recognize, that some people don't have family, or people that they serve professionally that they need to protect. We respect you're decision to play on. We just ask that you respect our decision to refuse any offers to hook up, or attend swinger events, or house parties at this time. Yes, we have had a few people approach us, only interested in right now, get upset at our decision to refuse to meet. Skype sex shows, with old friends, even in distance states, yup, it's fun! There is always an alternative.
Already had it. The joy of working in Healthcare.
We hear you. Early on in the pandemic, late January, prior to the USA knowing it had arrived, well before we were even thinking about it, I went on a call involving tourist from mainland China, who thought they had caught an American flu, because they had gotten their flu shots in China. The parents and one of the two adult children with them were running temperatures well above 100 and had COVID 19 symptoms. I had had a flu shot, so I only sort of worried about getting sick. I didn't. Neither did my dear wife. Two of my co-workers had what they thought was the worst flu they ever had. Yes I washed up as I should and I wore gloves, etc., but air born is hard to avoid in close proximity. Now, we suspect it was this damned virus. As you know, healthcare workers catch everything and some of us end up with super secondary immune systems. If not careful, we can end up becoming a super spreader. Curious, did you get sick?
Had a fever here and there for 2 days. Aside from that just felt tired for a week. The man cold is worse🤣🤣
Completely agree
Looks like it’s back to zoom swinging. 🤷♀️
———-
The State of Utah is getting serious about the virus. What’s next another shutdown? Sure everyone in UT received the following emergency alert yesterday. 😱
The continued rise in cases prompted the state to issue an emergency alert to cellphones Friday afternoon warning Utahns that local hospitals are "nearly overwhelmed."
"COVID-19 is spreading rapidly," the alert reads. "Record cases. Almost every county is in a high transmission area." The alert reminds Utahns that all counties in this "high" transmission level are under a mask mandate, and that casual social gatherings are limited to 10 people or fewer.
———-
The State of Utah is getting serious about the virus. What’s next another shutdown? Sure everyone in UT received the following emergency alert yesterday. 😱
The continued rise in cases prompted the state to issue an emergency alert to cellphones Friday afternoon warning Utahns that local hospitals are "nearly overwhelmed."
"COVID-19 is spreading rapidly," the alert reads. "Record cases. Almost every county is in a high transmission area." The alert reminds Utahns that all counties in this "high" transmission level are under a mask mandate, and that casual social gatherings are limited to 10 people or fewer.
Its sad that we have a higher transmission rate, but businesses are closing up again like the "height" of the pandemic back in Mar-May. People are out and about. Teleworking is slowing down. Because it was so much more serious then...smh.
MountainAdventures wrote:
Its sad that we have a higher transmission rate, but businesses are closing up again like the "height" of the pandemic back in Mar-May. People are out and about. Teleworking is slowing down. Because it was so much more serious then...smh.
Right? Human beans SUCK at risk assessment. EVERYTHING closed down when we had like 50 cases and 4 deaths. Now? PAR-TAY like it's Europe in 1350 (the height of the Black Plague).
SOMEWHERENTIME we like you point of view...on zoom swinging.
Y’all stay safe in Utah so we can join you in Dec for ski season.
Y’all stay safe in Utah so we can join you in Dec for ski season.
We managed to contract it through the school system. 10/10 do not recommend. It was brutal and I still dont have taste or smell back. I will say now that we've managed to make it through, mostly, we're going to enjoy our unknown limited immunity and people again for a bit.
MANDIEQT wrote:
We managed to contract it through the school system. 10/10 do not recommend. It was brutal and I still dont have taste or smell back. I will say now that we've managed to make it through, mostly, we're going to enjoy our unknown limited immunity and people again for a bit.
I got it and my wife got it from me, wasnt terrible for either of us but my sense of taste and smell are both still off and the worst part is the primary thing I cant taste yet is scotch
So . . . nothing or at least not too many things worse than a ‘know it all’. I am an Epidemiologist, and I read somewhere between 6 and 7 medical journals a day to keep up with my profession. I know people would like to have a definitive answer . . . there aren’t many. At the end of the day, the virus is extremely innocuous (not very deadly) in the normal and healthy population and yet extremely dangerous in the highest risk populations. We are MUCH better at treating the disease . . . even in the highest risk populations who contract the disease . . . but the reality is there are no guarantees. To the lucky majority, the virus will be 2 - 3 days of misery with severe flu-like symptoms and an additional week of cold-like symptoms. For the unlucky 0.8% of the population with increased risk - it will be deadly and will at a minimum land you a few days in the hospital.
At the end of the day . . . there are no guarantees in life. Life in the LS is a collection of measured risks that each of us take depending on our level of ‘play’. Sweeth and I don’t play a lot - but we have no concerns about playing with the short list of couples we are comfortable with. Recently we got the disease . . . not from any of these couples, but from a family member inadvertently . . . the same way >90% of us will/did get it. We were in the ‘lucky’ group and it was over almost as quickly as it began. Now we are immune for (at least by the current science) about 6 months. My immunologic knowledge suggests that is for even longer, even though no studies have been completed to document it.
We wish you all luck. Each of us must make our own decisions based largely on our tolerance for risk, and the factors that contribute to our individual risk. We’re open for ‘business’ or business as usual. We genuinely hope you all will be safe and that if you do get sick from the virus . . . that you recover quickly. Good luck!
At the end of the day . . . there are no guarantees in life. Life in the LS is a collection of measured risks that each of us take depending on our level of ‘play’. Sweeth and I don’t play a lot - but we have no concerns about playing with the short list of couples we are comfortable with. Recently we got the disease . . . not from any of these couples, but from a family member inadvertently . . . the same way >90% of us will/did get it. We were in the ‘lucky’ group and it was over almost as quickly as it began. Now we are immune for (at least by the current science) about 6 months. My immunologic knowledge suggests that is for even longer, even though no studies have been completed to document it.
We wish you all luck. Each of us must make our own decisions based largely on our tolerance for risk, and the factors that contribute to our individual risk. We’re open for ‘business’ or business as usual. We genuinely hope you all will be safe and that if you do get sick from the virus . . . that you recover quickly. Good luck!
I'm 62 and tested positive and never had symptoms
I'm 62 and tested positive and never had symptoms
JSPJ_1958 wrote:
I'm 62 and tested positive and never had symptoms
yes, the anecdotal evidence of one person. That's all we need to beat this.
SweettAndH wrote:
So . . . nothing or at least not too many things worse than a ‘know it all’. I am an Epidemiologist, and I read somewhere between 6 and 7 medical journals a day to keep up with my profession. I know people would like to have a definitive answer . . . there aren’t many. At the end of the day, the virus is extremely innocuous (not very deadly) in the normal and healthy population and yet extremely dangerous in the highest risk populations. We are MUCH better at treating the disease . . . even in the highest risk populations who contract the disease . . . but the reality is there are no guarantees. To the lucky majority, the virus will be 2 - 3 days of misery with severe flu-like symptoms and an additional week of cold-like symptoms. For the unlucky 0.8% of the population with increased risk - it will be deadly and will at a minimum land you a few days in the hospital.
At the end of the day . . . there are no guarantees in life. Life in the LS is a collection of measured risks that each of us take depending on our level of ‘play’. Sweeth and I don’t play a lot - but we have no concerns about playing with the short list of couples we are comfortable with. Recently we got the disease . . . not from any of these couples, but from a family member inadvertently . . . the same way >90% of us will/did get it. We were in the ‘lucky’ group and it was over almost as quickly as it began. Now we are immune for (at least by the current science) about 6 months. My immunologic knowledge suggests that is for even longer, even though no studies have been completed to document it.
We wish you all luck. Each of us must make our own decisions based largely on our tolerance for risk, and the factors that contribute to our individual risk. We’re open for ‘business’ or business as usual. We genuinely hope you all will be safe and that if you do get sick from the virus . . . that you recover quickly. Good luck!
Glad you are okay & made it through your illness. I appreciate your comments. I agree we all have to asses and go with our own risk levels that we are comfortable with for ourselves, and those we are in close contact with.
I believe it is important to respect others and do what we can to minimize the risk of catching the disease by following established guidelines
Hmmm, interesting opinions. Too bad we're at a record number of daily cases, deaths, AND, more importantly, hospitalizations. What happens when the hospitals can no longer accommodate or staff ANY new COVID patients? We're REALLY close to that point right now and Gary Herbert even interrupted my HBO binge tonight to tell me how shitty things are. *shrug*
We care too much about our family and friends, and that includes lifestyle friends for sure, to ramp up our behavioral risk levels. Yes, most of us would survive getting infected, and not get all that sick; but who among us won’t?
Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that you see people wearing masks and social distancing doesn't mean they are doing it 24/7 or in places where businesses or other entities aren't making them do it or even that most people are doing it at all. Ask ANY doctor or nurse (especially those working with COVID patients) if they think wearing masks helps to keep them safe.
Science is based on facts, not opinions (Except, perhaps, for those who got their Ph.D. in infectious diseases from YouTube and/or FaceBook University...or maybe Trump University.). It's a scientific FACT that masks (and social distancing) work. Yes, we need other tools to combat this virus (vaccines, etc.) but to say that other measures don't help is helping to fuel the DRAMATIC increase in cases we're now seeing.
And holding up the Spanish Flu pandemic (a time when we didn't even have penicillin yet!) as proof that masks don't work is a false dichotomy and utter simplification of a complex disease during a relatively primitive scientific era when people still believed that ingesting mercury was a good treatment for syphilis.
Science is based on facts, not opinions (Except, perhaps, for those who got their Ph.D. in infectious diseases from YouTube and/or FaceBook University...or maybe Trump University.). It's a scientific FACT that masks (and social distancing) work. Yes, we need other tools to combat this virus (vaccines, etc.) but to say that other measures don't help is helping to fuel the DRAMATIC increase in cases we're now seeing.
And holding up the Spanish Flu pandemic (a time when we didn't even have penicillin yet!) as proof that masks don't work is a false dichotomy and utter simplification of a complex disease during a relatively primitive scientific era when people still believed that ingesting mercury was a good treatment for syphilis.
There is some pretty obvious historical and modern evidence, including outcomes with this pandemic, that social distancing and yes, even mask reduce the spread of infection. Once a virus becomes endemic, your chances of contracting and spreading an infection goes up. In the parts of our world where precautionary measures were adhered to, by the majority of the population the virus did not spread as it has in so much of the rest of the world. Behavior, spread and outcome all link together. Obviously.
As for shaming, shame is non productive. Reevaluating everything and anything does not require shame. None of us knows so much we can speak about much of anything in matter of fact terms. I would agree shutting down social contact is risky. Riskier for some than for others, as is this virus. Knowing that what we decide to do or not do is a decision we make, mostly around the people most important to us and yes ourselves as well. I don’t think the point of this forum is for it to be competitive. No shame intended. It’s just people expressing what they are choosing to do or not do.
😘💋💋💋
-GLTA
-GLTA
Sm435 wrote:
Slowing is not stopping, thus in no way a solution, just a delay.
In real words: you are more than likely going to get it at some point. Take precautions if you are worried about it, but you are still choosing between now and later. Hopefully you can delay it and help keep a steady, but very manageable flow, in and out of the hospitals. Good luck. We do want you to still wear a mask to slow the spread, but also protect you from being singled out and shamed while shopping, but in reality there are still other ways to get infected and we can’t do a damn thing to stop it.
I referenced the term endemic. Which I think at this point the virus is here in the USA. Like the flu, all the other coronavirus, rhinovirus, strep, etc.,etc., it’s just here. There will be vaccine. The herd will over time find more resistance than the herd has now. Native Americans no longer die in the millions from the flu, which was novel flu virus to them when it first arrived. It’s a long game at this point but the vaccine will smooth out the transition. We have kids and grandkids. We are frankly holding out for the vaccine just to be safe. We probably can’t stop it, but we are going to try and dodge it for now.
And I apologize for using "Big words". I didn't mean to offend you. I like to use precise terminology to avoid ambiguity. I also apologize for possibly not being more generalized in my assertion about YouTube or FaceBook University (I won't apologize for the Trump U crack, however. lol). It was mostly meant as a joke but also as a generic critique of those who seem to think that things they read on social media are all similarly meritorious when compared to facts and evidence. It was never meant as an attack on you personally. Having said that, however, I can't and won't stand idly by when disinformation is intentionally or unintentionally spread.
Wearing masks and social distancing (pretty much the ONLY weapons we currently have in this pandemic) are NOT opinions. An opinion is something like, "That car is ugly.". Anyone is entitled to say that it isn't. Science doesn't care about opinions. It cares about facts and evidence and goes where they lead. And yes, sometimes science gets it wrong and when newer, better evidence is presented changes it's hypothesis to where the newer evidence leads.
If masks don't do anything to ameliorate the potential spread of disease I invite anyone to request that their doctors and nurses forgo masks and maybe even surgical gowns and gloves the next time they have surgery.
Wearing masks and social distancing (pretty much the ONLY weapons we currently have in this pandemic) are NOT opinions. An opinion is something like, "That car is ugly.". Anyone is entitled to say that it isn't. Science doesn't care about opinions. It cares about facts and evidence and goes where they lead. And yes, sometimes science gets it wrong and when newer, better evidence is presented changes it's hypothesis to where the newer evidence leads.
If masks don't do anything to ameliorate the potential spread of disease I invite anyone to request that their doctors and nurses forgo masks and maybe even surgical gowns and gloves the next time they have surgery.
noone ever stopped playing cause of the flu, take your life back we all have been held hostage enough , they got the election mission accomplished ,let's get back to living....IMO
Well LS peeps - the good news is the argument may now be moot. I’ve seen the data announced yesterday. That is correct - a vaccine is on its way. The Pfizer vaccine induced antibodies shown to neutralize this strain of Covid-19 in 90% of those who received it virtually all age groups. Also, they have already produced > 150M doses as risk.
While the majority of us won’t be able to get immunized until late Q1 of 2021 . . . It is coming and that is great news. Also - for any anti-Vaxers out there . . . let me just say this - there is no ethical way to know definitively how protective the vaccine is until after a significant % of the population has been immunized and challenged naturally with the actual virus (it is unethical to purposely expose recipients with the virus) . . . the results are as good as we could hope for . . . actually . . . They are BETTER than we could have hoped for. Believe what you will . . . but this is exciting news. Stay tuned. Affectionately . . . Sweettandh
While the majority of us won’t be able to get immunized until late Q1 of 2021 . . . It is coming and that is great news. Also - for any anti-Vaxers out there . . . let me just say this - there is no ethical way to know definitively how protective the vaccine is until after a significant % of the population has been immunized and challenged naturally with the actual virus (it is unethical to purposely expose recipients with the virus) . . . the results are as good as we could hope for . . . actually . . . They are BETTER than we could have hoped for. Believe what you will . . . but this is exciting news. Stay tuned. Affectionately . . . Sweettandh
Fantastic news about the vaccine but I'll probably reserve judgment until I see the peer-reviewed studies instead of a press release. Of course, if they get FDA approval for fast-tracking this vaccine we may never see any actual studies.
A 90% effectiveness rate is just a tad unbelievable if you know anything about virology and immunology. I certainly hope that it's anywhere NEAR that high and that we will see widespread availability in the not-too-distant future.
My understanding is that they have about 25 million doses available right now and could have 50 million by the end of the year. That's GLOBALLY and not just for the U.S. and remember that those most vulnerable (front line providers and at-risk populations) will get the vaccine long before any of us do. Also, remember that it's a series of TWO injections which could also limit supplies and that we still don't know what kind of long-term immune response the vaccine imparts.
But I'll drink to ANY potential tool that helps fight this virus. Sweett brought up a good point about those who might refuse to get vaccinated.
A 90% effectiveness rate is just a tad unbelievable if you know anything about virology and immunology. I certainly hope that it's anywhere NEAR that high and that we will see widespread availability in the not-too-distant future.
My understanding is that they have about 25 million doses available right now and could have 50 million by the end of the year. That's GLOBALLY and not just for the U.S. and remember that those most vulnerable (front line providers and at-risk populations) will get the vaccine long before any of us do. Also, remember that it's a series of TWO injections which could also limit supplies and that we still don't know what kind of long-term immune response the vaccine imparts.
But I'll drink to ANY potential tool that helps fight this virus. Sweett brought up a good point about those who might refuse to get vaccinated.
EVILDOERS wrote:
Fantastic news about the vaccine but I'll probably reserve judgment until I see the peer-reviewed studies instead of a press release. Of course, if they get FDA approval for fast-tracking this vaccine we may never see any actual studies.
A 90% effectiveness rate is just a tad unbelievable if you know anything about virology and immunology. I certainly hope that it's anywhere NEAR that high and that we will see widespread availability in the not-too-distant future.
My understanding is that they have about 25 million doses available right now and could have 50 million by the end of the year. That's GLOBALLY and not just for the U.S. and remember that those most vulnerable (front line providers and at-risk populations) will get the vaccine long before any of us do. Also, remember that it's a series of TWO injections which could also limit supplies and that we still don't know what kind of long-term immune response the vaccine imparts.
But I'll drink to ANY potential tool that helps fight this virus. Sweett brought up a good point about those who might refuse to get vaccinated.
Not to be argumentative or anything - and I really don’t want to get into a credentialing discussion since we know each other and I at least know your scientific background. For the sake of those who don’t - let me just explain that my doctorate is epidemiology and that as a function of that training, I ran the US business unit of the largest pediatric vaccine company in the world for 10 years. We were also the largest manufacture of flu vaccines in the world. Because of this experience, I am intimately familiar with the vaccine development process, and have been indirectly involved in this virus’ vaccine development as an outside advisor.
90% efficacy is kind of minimalist . . . Except as it relates to flu . . . and, of course, novel and new viruses. It is truly a remarkable feat. In pediatric vaccines we expect >98% efficacy. As to the double-blind and peer-reviewed research - I am happy to provide you or anyone else with that info when it has finished its review and is published, which will happen soon.
You are no doubt aware that an announcement of this magnitude nearly ALWAYS precedes the publication in a peer-reviewed journal. This is because even though the data has now been unblinded and a report has been written and distributed for the purpose of evaluation (which includes these results) - the write up of the research must still undergo multiple levels of review (thus the term ‘peer reviewed’).
Having said that, the data on safety was released back in July - it can be easily viewed by anyone via a short google scholar search. Beyond that, we have known how to build a recombinant vaccine for nearly 40 years - so safety issues are HIGHLY unlikely. What IS at risk is whether or not the antibodies generated from the vaccine, and the antigens they bind to, are actually neutralizing antigens for this virus. (E.g. do they have the capability of putting out the fire so to speak or killing the actual virus). We can’t ethically know the answer to that, of course, until subjects are exposed naturally to the virus. We rarely DO know the answer to this. Our business is one of measuring antibody titres as stimulated by and in response to a vaccine. While there is good reason to believe they will be neutralizing antigens - as these antigens were protective in laboratory models, we can’t know until natural exposure. This is the way we have measured immune response in every vaccine I am aware of. Efficacy data will not begin to pour in until AFTER the vaccine’s approval and after months or years of observation. This too is neither unusual nor suspect.
I have tried deliberately to keep this simple so as not to bore others who may be reading this thread, and not out of any disrespect for your background. I would offer to you or anyone interested a deeper dive into the broader science if anyone is interested - this is my wheelhouse so to speak.
My point in posting about the vaccine was simply to provide a ray of hope to those who have been mitigating risk at home. There are ample reasons to believe that this virus will be arrested soon and that life will cease to be adversely affected from this wicked thing soon. I believe we could begin to see the benefits of herd immunity as early as late 2nd qtr 2021, but certainly by Q3 assuming a large percentage of the population gets the vaccine once it is approved and available.
As to the quantity of vaccine available - I know from an inside source that Pfizer produced 150M doses at risk. How many of those doses are still available I don’t know, but my contact (who used to work for me in our manufacturing) suggests they should have around 300M doses available by the end of the year. How or where those doses are allocated are not part of my purview. These doses are the amount produced in the US facility. I have no idea how many other manufacturing facilities they have, but I can certainly ask. Once the formula is approved, it is very possible or even probably that Pfizer will license the recipe out (for a price) as part of a humanitarian effort. That too is outside my purview - but I have participated in those type of agreements with our government and others before so it would only make sense.
I don’t mean to offend or diminish anyone else’s perspective - but this happens to be an area I am extremely familiar with. I probably won’t be posting any further on this subject so feel free to attack this after I’ve left the discussion. Alternatively, please feel free to reach out to me in a PM if I can be of any help. Best of luck and stay safe!
As a matter of fact, my reference to claims of 90% efficacy WAS in contrast to the typical percentages we see with seasonal influenza vaccines since our leaders have kept insisting that "It's just like the flu.". As to the number of available doses, and timelines for manufacturing more, I was just quoting what several of the news outlets were saying yesterday. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And, fwiw, I never get offended, especially on the interwebs, and ESPECIALLY in this case. :-) I would be VERY happy to be wrong and ELATED if this vaccine (or another one) would eradicate this virus. Hopefully, as a country (planet?), we've learned a very hard lesson and won't be so woefully unprepared...or at least unprepared to take something like this SERIOUSLY the next (inevitable) time this happens.
ps- I DID read Pfizer's study linked on their website (Well, skimmed it since it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet!) :-) Here's the link for anyone so inclined. Your text to Pfizer Study link here...
And, fwiw, I never get offended, especially on the interwebs, and ESPECIALLY in this case. :-) I would be VERY happy to be wrong and ELATED if this vaccine (or another one) would eradicate this virus. Hopefully, as a country (planet?), we've learned a very hard lesson and won't be so woefully unprepared...or at least unprepared to take something like this SERIOUSLY the next (inevitable) time this happens.
ps- I DID read Pfizer's study linked on their website (Well, skimmed it since it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet!) :-) Here's the link for anyone so inclined. Your text to Pfizer Study link here...
For us it's a no brainer. It's simply not worth the risk. To us or our friends. To anyone frankly! Regardless of the activity we choose to be part of the solution. Not part of the problem.
MnB
MnB
SweettAndH wrote:EVILDOERS wrote:
Fantastic news about the vaccine but I'll probably reserve judgment until I see the peer-reviewed studies instead of a press release. Of course, if they get FDA approval for fast-tracking this vaccine we may never see any actual studies.
A 90% effectiveness rate is just a tad unbelievable if you know anything about virology and immunology. I certainly hope that it's anywhere NEAR that high and that we will see widespread availability in the not-too-distant future.
My understanding is that they have about 25 million doses available right now and could have 50 million by the end of the year. That's GLOBALLY and not just for the U.S. and remember that those most vulnerable (front line providers and at-risk populations) will get the vaccine long before any of us do. Also, remember that it's a series of TWO injections which could also limit supplies and that we still don't know what kind of long-term immune response the vaccine imparts.
But I'll drink to ANY potential tool that helps fight this virus. Sweett brought up a good point about those who might refuse to get vaccinated.
Not to be argumentative or anything - and I really don’t want to get into a credentialing discussion since we know each other and I at least know your scientific background. For the sake of those who don’t - let me just explain that my doctorate is epidemiology and that as a function of that training, I ran the US business unit of the largest pediatric vaccine company in the world for 10 years. We were also the largest manufacture of flu vaccines in the world. Because of this experience, I am intimately familiar with the vaccine development process, and have been indirectly involved in this virus’ vaccine development as an outside advisor.
90% efficacy is kind of minimalist . . . Except as it relates to flu . . . and, of course, novel and new viruses. It is truly a remarkable feat. In pediatric vaccines we expect >98% efficacy. As to the double-blind and peer-reviewed research - I am happy to provide you or anyone else with that info when it has finished its review and is published, which will happen soon.
You are no doubt aware that an announcement of this magnitude nearly ALWAYS precedes the publication in a peer-reviewed journal. This is because even though the data has now been unblinded and a report has been written and distributed for the purpose of evaluation (which includes these results) - the write up of the research must still undergo multiple levels of review (thus the term ‘peer reviewed’).
Having said that, the data on safety was released back in July - it can be easily viewed by anyone via a short google scholar search. Beyond that, we have known how to build a recombinant vaccine for nearly 40 years - so safety issues are HIGHLY unlikely. What IS at risk is whether or not the antibodies generated from the vaccine, and the antigens they bind to, are actually neutralizing antigens for this virus. (E.g. do they have the capability of putting out the fire so to speak or killing the actual virus). We can’t ethically know the answer to that, of course, until subjects are exposed naturally to the virus. We rarely DO know the answer to this. Our business is one of measuring antibody titres as stimulated by and in response to a vaccine. While there is good reason to believe they will be neutralizing antigens - as these antigens were protective in laboratory models, we can’t know until natural exposure. This is the way we have measured immune response in every vaccine I am aware of. Efficacy data will not begin to pour in until AFTER the vaccine’s approval and after months or years of observation. This too is neither unusual nor suspect.
I have tried deliberately to keep this simple so as not to bore others who may be reading this thread, and not out of any disrespect for your background. I would offer to you or anyone interested a deeper dive into the broader science if anyone is interested - this is my wheelhouse so to speak.
My point in posting about the vaccine was simply to provide a ray of hope to those who have been mitigating risk at home. There are ample reasons to believe that this virus will be arrested soon and that life will cease to be adversely affected from this wicked thing soon. I believe we could begin to see the benefits of herd immunity as early as late 2nd qtr 2021, but certainly by Q3 assuming a large percentage of the population gets the vaccine once it is approved and available.
As to the quantity of vaccine available - I know from an inside source that Pfizer produced 150M doses at risk. How many of those doses are still available I don’t know, but my contact (who used to work for me in our manufacturing) suggests they should have around 300M doses available by the end of the year. How or where those doses are allocated are not part of my purview. These doses are the amount produced in the US facility. I have no idea how many other manufacturing facilities they have, but I can certainly ask. Once the formula is approved, it is very possible or even probably that Pfizer will license the recipe out (for a price) as part of a humanitarian effort. That too is outside my purview - but I have participated in those type of agreements with our government and others before so it would only make sense.
I don’t mean to offend or diminish anyone else’s perspective - but this happens to be an area I am extremely familiar with. I probably won’t be posting any further on this subject so feel free to attack this after I’ve left the discussion. Alternatively, please feel free to reach out to me in a PM if I can be of any help. Best of luck and stay safe!
Thank you. That does give us hope!
Dumb layman’s question. Could a sequence from this or any other viral DNA be included in a CAS 9 protein and then introduced into a person’s RNA and then end up appropriately sequences in that persons DNA , so that it acts like some sort of retrograde jumping viral DNA that would cut and kill the virus upon contamination? If that is theoretically feasible, if there is a sequence from the early evolution of all coronavirus that still found in most remaining corona viruses, would that same procedure kill all corona virus upon contamination?
Typing with your thumbs on a mountain, multitasking, and typos go hand in hand.
So Sm435 I am surprised by your obvious agitation at others expressing their view points. Ok so some people don’t agree with you...so what.
Everybody is going to do what they want and that is a fact. Some willfully defy government orders for mask and social distancing. Some people will stay home because others won’t make sure they participate in creating a situation to slow the spread of covid. We get it, it’s a choice of how much risk you are willing to take to avoid contracting covid.
Sm435 you are right nothing is certain. But just because people disagree should not put you of the defensive so easy. We should hope the solutions offered help us make the best of a bad situation.
Everybody is going to do what they want and that is a fact. Some willfully defy government orders for mask and social distancing. Some people will stay home because others won’t make sure they participate in creating a situation to slow the spread of covid. We get it, it’s a choice of how much risk you are willing to take to avoid contracting covid.
Sm435 you are right nothing is certain. But just because people disagree should not put you of the defensive so easy. We should hope the solutions offered help us make the best of a bad situation.
ThroughTheVeil wrote:
Swingular is the first place we've seen an epidemiologist personal words, and someone actually argue against the wearing of masks. Crazy.
Where did you see me arguing against masks? That’s not me!!!!! Not wearing a mask is stupidity in light of the currently available scientific data. I won’t be put into that box.
Wash your hands often and wear your masks. That is the best chance we have of moving forward with some sense of normalcy . . . Until we have a vaccine that has been widely distributed and administered.
DELICIOUSLYWET wrote:
Dumb layman’s question. Could a sequence from this or any other viral DNA be included in a CAS 9 protein and then introduced into a person’s RNA and then end up appropriately sequences in that persons DNA , so that it acts like some sort of retrograde jumping viral DNA that would cut and kill the virus upon contamination? If that is theoretically feasible, if there is a sequence from the early evolution of all coronavirus that still found in most remaining corona viruses, would that same procedure kill all corona virus upon contamination?
Great question cogently expressed. I would be happy to discuss that with you over a phone conversation if you are interested. Just PM me..
It’s a theoretical question we could discuss. It would take waaaaaaay more time than I have to put together any type of response that would be meaningful. Thanks for a thought provoking question though!! 👍👍
A funny(?) aside to this thread. The CEO of Pfizer, Albert Bourla, sold 62% of his personal stock in the company on Monday after they issued the press release announcing the success of the vaccine trials and the value of Pfizer stock soared 15%. Things that make you go, "Hmmmm." 
Take The Money and Run?
Take The Money and Run?
Sm435,
I think you might be getting just a little bit hung up on semantics. While I'm certain some public officials and/or doctors and scientists might have inadvertently talked about stopping the virus vs. just slowing the virus I seriously doubt that anyone actually expects us to completely STOP the virus anytime soon...if ever.
There will always be people who refuse to do their part to help slow down the spread of the virus (let alone stop it somehow) because they simply refuse to do what the experts have deemed necessary to do just that...wear a mask (or wear one not hanging below their nose), social distancing, not gathering in large groups, etc.. So even WITH an effective vaccine and other measures being employed we are unlikely to actually stop the virus anytime in the foreseeable future (imho).
Hell, there are already large numbers of people who have flatly stated that they will never get the vaccine regardless. And, like other viruses, it could potentially mutate into enough different strains that we would need an annual vaccination like we do with the seasonal flu.
Perhaps the best immediate solution is to somehow segregate those who refuse to follow the recommendations of experts from those who try to do everything they can (with the tools available to us right now). Logistically, something like that would likely be next to impossible but since the pandemic seems to have become some kind of political football being kicked back and forth it might be our only option. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think you might be getting just a little bit hung up on semantics. While I'm certain some public officials and/or doctors and scientists might have inadvertently talked about stopping the virus vs. just slowing the virus I seriously doubt that anyone actually expects us to completely STOP the virus anytime soon...if ever.
There will always be people who refuse to do their part to help slow down the spread of the virus (let alone stop it somehow) because they simply refuse to do what the experts have deemed necessary to do just that...wear a mask (or wear one not hanging below their nose), social distancing, not gathering in large groups, etc.. So even WITH an effective vaccine and other measures being employed we are unlikely to actually stop the virus anytime in the foreseeable future (imho).
Hell, there are already large numbers of people who have flatly stated that they will never get the vaccine regardless. And, like other viruses, it could potentially mutate into enough different strains that we would need an annual vaccination like we do with the seasonal flu.
Perhaps the best immediate solution is to somehow segregate those who refuse to follow the recommendations of experts from those who try to do everything they can (with the tools available to us right now). Logistically, something like that would likely be next to impossible but since the pandemic seems to have become some kind of political football being kicked back and forth it might be our only option. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
SweettAndH wrote:DELICIOUSLYWET wrote:
Dumb layman’s question. Could a sequence from this or any other viral DNA be included in a CAS 9 protein and then introduced into a person’s RNA and then end up appropriately sequences in that persons DNA , so that it acts like some sort of retrograde jumping viral DNA that would cut and kill the virus upon contamination? If that is theoretically feasible, if there is a sequence from the early evolution of all coronavirus that still found in most remaining corona viruses, would that same procedure kill all corona virus upon contamination?
Great question cogently expressed. I would be happy to discuss that with you over a phone conversation if you are interested. Just PM me..
It’s a theoretical question we could discuss. It would take waaaaaaay more time than I have to put together any type of response that would be meaningful. Thanks for a thought provoking question though!! 👍👍
I've been really busy. I'll pm you soon.
I had a long, productive and informative telephone conversation with Mr. SweettAndH. He is a professional, with years of experience with the medical research, management and solutions that directly impact viral infections and pandemics. He isn't grinding anyone's political agenda. His opinions and his advise is science based. He is one of the scientific community's peers, qualified to review the data, and in fact he is a involved in upper level peer review. I say this not so much to deter any criticisms or disagreements anyone may have with his contributions to this forum, or this subject in general. I am all for free speech! In my opinion, when he opines, because there is research, and data, vigorously debated and reviewed, that he is aware of, that influences and supports what he has to say, his opinions deserve our careful consideration.
SweettAndH, thank you!
SweettAndH, thank you!
Another BIG jump in cases today in Utah. I think we're like 5th or 6th in the nation now in percentage of positives in COVID testing. :-( Stay safe out there!
There is a family we know, where the father has MS. Their daughter caught the virus participating in extra curricular events at high school. Once she heard that several of her teammates had the virus, she went for a test, and her mom and dad masked up. She came home and wore a mask and stayed in her bedroom. Mom and dad and also remained in mask. Mom brought food to their daughter and returned to get the dishes. Daughter used one bathroom and mom and dad used another. They all washed their hands often. The daughter's test came back positive. Their daughter did get somewhat sick. After 10 days the daughter went and had another test since she had been feeling well for about 4 days. It came back negative. Mom and Dad never caught the virus. So, at least with this family, social distancing, good hygiene and mask seemed to prevent her mom and dad from catching the virus, living under the same roof.
Yup, we know a family with a similar situation and strictly following scientific/medical protocols only one family member, an older child got sick. Sadly, we know another family where their oldest boy was exposed by attending a basketball game with his friends. By the time he started feeling ill the rest of the family was as well. The mother is high risk but, so far, still toughing it out at home. The father, low risk based on age/health is now in the ICU.
EVILDOERS wrote:
Yup, we know a family with a similar situation and strictly following scientific/medical protocols only one family member, an older child got sick. Sadly, we know another family where their oldest boy was exposed by attending a basketball game with his friends. By the time he started feeling ill the rest of the family was as well. The mother is high risk but, so far, still toughing it out at home. The father, low risk based on age/health is now in the ICU.
That sucks.
Hmmm..........
SOMEWHERENTIME wrote:
Hmmm..........
Free the Titty, Protect the City.
Finally someone with a plausible solution!!
DELICIOUSLYWET wrote:
I had a long, productive and informative telephone conversation with Mr. SweettAndH. He is a professional, with years of experience with the medical research, management and solutions that directly impact viral infections and pandemics. He isn't grinding anyone's political agenda. His opinions and his advise is science based. He is one of the scientific community's peers, qualified to review the data, and in fact he is a involved in upper level peer review. I say this not so much to deter any criticisms or disagreements anyone may have with his contributions to this forum, or this subject in general. I am all for free speech! In my opinion, when he opines, because there is research, and data, vigorously debated and reviewed, that he is aware of, that influences and supports what he has to say, his opinions deserve our careful consideration.
SweettAndH, thank you!
Thanks for the props deliciouslywet - I very much enjoyed our conversation! Just want to provide hope when there is so much to be hopeful about. You probably all heard Moderna’s vaccine trial results today. Exciting news to be sure. Stay tuned.