Anyone surprised that the Unions lost their way? Not me they are selfish little brats that will never consider the American people their boss. The Tax payer is their employer and the must listen to the demands of the tax payer.
The injury is to the state and its people. The majority of the state must retain the power to end contracts that don't achieve expectations. Rather fail to meet or exceed goals set forth by the people. "The Employer"
The injury is to the state and its people. The majority of the state must retain the power to end contracts that don't achieve expectations. Rather fail to meet or exceed goals set forth by the people. "The Employer"
I would say the tax payer is not the employer, the state is the employer. The tax payer just has the funds for the programs taken from him by the state. The tax payer does not get to choose where the money goes, but he is allowed to select the people who will collect and distribute those funds. The tax payer chooses between the lesser evil of the corporate funded candidates. The people have lost most of their power in this process due to election "reforms". In my mind the people are no longer the employer, we are just the funding. As a tax payer, how many people in government would listen to you(I wish this wasnot the case, but this is the reality of the situation), how are we their bosses?
I don't know what you are refering to when you say that the unions lost their way, what do you mean?
How many private corporations have had overruns in government projects where we have had to pick up the bill? I don't think that taking away the right to bargin a fair price is going to help resolve the issues of government.
I don't know what you are refering to when you say that the unions lost their way, what do you mean?
How many private corporations have had overruns in government projects where we have had to pick up the bill? I don't think that taking away the right to bargin a fair price is going to help resolve the issues of government.
Good points all of them I was wondering if any one here had a brain, found one.
It is time for the people to have a say. Collective bargaining is fine in the private sector and I hold no malice toward any Union. My argument is for the public sector. I am resentful? yes I am. I am a worker who makes 41% less than my counterpart in the public sector. And though I have been with the same company for 19+ years my retirement is peeked compared to his. Over whelming to think I am worth less than he is. Sure he joined the Union and so did his daddy and his uncles and so on and so on but when is it our turn, if I bitch I am out of a job, sorry enough is enough.
It is time for the people to have a say. Collective bargaining is fine in the private sector and I hold no malice toward any Union. My argument is for the public sector. I am resentful? yes I am. I am a worker who makes 41% less than my counterpart in the public sector. And though I have been with the same company for 19+ years my retirement is peeked compared to his. Over whelming to think I am worth less than he is. Sure he joined the Union and so did his daddy and his uncles and so on and so on but when is it our turn, if I bitch I am out of a job, sorry enough is enough.
Unions are very important for a variety of reasons.
Unions got us unemployment benefits.
Unions got us Social Security.
Unions got us the 40 hour works week.
Unions got us mandatory overtime pay.
Are some unions bad? Of course. Is some collective bargaining bad? Of course.
But many of the things people see as "bad" had very good reasons. The UAW recently was discussing the changes that went on in the auto industry over the last few years. They admitted that the paying laid off employees until the end of the contract idea was bad, but they also explained that it was done to try and ensure the companies would commit to existing plants and not relocate. Upcoming rounds of talks are aimed at bargaining a commitment to keep plants open for X time frame and produce a minimum number of products.
The attacked unions in WI all agreed to the cut in pay and the additional charges for medical benefits. What caused all the issues was the removal of collective bargaining, that was the ONLY issue they were fighting for. While they were upset about the removal of automatic pay that wasn't what they were fighting about.
Collective bargaining means that as a group your complaints and issues can be heard. It means that the voice of one can not be drowned out or fired in order to keep the masses quiet. The loss of collective bargaining in both the private and now the public sector is designed to remove the voice of the lower end worker. Letting a larger and larger gap be created between the wealthy and everyone else.
Also Free, curious to know how you make 41% less than public sector workers? Normally public sector workers make significantly less than private sector people doing the same job. Exceptions would be law enforcement and firefighters, both of which are done for less money by the lowest bidder to increase the safety of the public, or at least the wealthy.
Unions got us unemployment benefits.
Unions got us Social Security.
Unions got us the 40 hour works week.
Unions got us mandatory overtime pay.
Are some unions bad? Of course. Is some collective bargaining bad? Of course.
But many of the things people see as "bad" had very good reasons. The UAW recently was discussing the changes that went on in the auto industry over the last few years. They admitted that the paying laid off employees until the end of the contract idea was bad, but they also explained that it was done to try and ensure the companies would commit to existing plants and not relocate. Upcoming rounds of talks are aimed at bargaining a commitment to keep plants open for X time frame and produce a minimum number of products.
The attacked unions in WI all agreed to the cut in pay and the additional charges for medical benefits. What caused all the issues was the removal of collective bargaining, that was the ONLY issue they were fighting for. While they were upset about the removal of automatic pay that wasn't what they were fighting about.
Collective bargaining means that as a group your complaints and issues can be heard. It means that the voice of one can not be drowned out or fired in order to keep the masses quiet. The loss of collective bargaining in both the private and now the public sector is designed to remove the voice of the lower end worker. Letting a larger and larger gap be created between the wealthy and everyone else.
Also Free, curious to know how you make 41% less than public sector workers? Normally public sector workers make significantly less than private sector people doing the same job. Exceptions would be law enforcement and firefighters, both of which are done for less money by the lowest bidder to increase the safety of the public, or at least the wealthy.
"Also Free, curious to know how you make 41% less than public sector workers? Normally public sector workers make significantly less than private sector people doing the same job. Exceptions would be law enforcement and firefighters, both of which are done for less money by the lowest bidder to increase the safety of the public, or at least the wealthy."
OK here it is. I am in Road construction. I am a paver. I earned $17.00 only because I drive as well. I live in a right to work state. The guy who works under contract with the State DOT earn 27.50 Appox. 41%
Not to mention, I have had a 401K, he has State mandatory Retirement, +401K, He will retire at 55 I will retire to reach his level at 62. And to boot the State Taxes I have been paying for 28+ Years will pay his Retirement, and do NOTHING for me. I have said I hold no Malice toward Unions and collective Bargaining IMO is a Privilege not a right and over the years it has been used to manipulate how the state governs and sets agenda for me. I set the agenda not the Union, me the average Tax payer.
CBA is not a right it is a privilege and when abused to gain political POWER it should be REVOKED.
The injury is to the state and its people. The majority of the state must retain the power to end contracts that don't achieve expectations. Rather fail to meet or exceed goals set forth by the people. "The Employer"
OK here it is. I am in Road construction. I am a paver. I earned $17.00 only because I drive as well. I live in a right to work state. The guy who works under contract with the State DOT earn 27.50 Appox. 41%
Not to mention, I have had a 401K, he has State mandatory Retirement, +401K, He will retire at 55 I will retire to reach his level at 62. And to boot the State Taxes I have been paying for 28+ Years will pay his Retirement, and do NOTHING for me. I have said I hold no Malice toward Unions and collective Bargaining IMO is a Privilege not a right and over the years it has been used to manipulate how the state governs and sets agenda for me. I set the agenda not the Union, me the average Tax payer.
CBA is not a right it is a privilege and when abused to gain political POWER it should be REVOKED.
The injury is to the state and its people. The majority of the state must retain the power to end contracts that don't achieve expectations. Rather fail to meet or exceed goals set forth by the people. "The Employer"
CBA is a Privilege garnished in a contract. If the union Violates said contract with substandard work or becomes influenced with politicians or politics, they have violated the contract and CBA should be Revoked. It is time to stop the bleeding.
So you think collective bargaining should be eliminated because the state made bad contract decisions?
And you think independent contract negotiations are better because you made bad contract decisions?
The voice of a group (ie. the "collective") will always be stronger than the voice of the individual. The state does not have to enter in to any specific contract with workers, and they can add their own requirements to that contract during negotiations. Saying that the collective bargaining process is bad because the workers want the ability to be heard as a group and to be protected as a group, as opposed to the more typical good old boy's network of advancement and protection, is pretty much the same thing as saying that you want people to completely fend for themselves.
I am surprised that you make so much less than your public counterpart (not doubting, just surprised) it's the opposite here in FL, also a right to work state. Most state workers make significantly less than private sector workers, but do enjoy better benefits. A private school teacher can expect to be paid $52k while their public counterpart is paid $41k.
Now I will agree collective bargaining is not a right, but freedom to assemble IS a right. Making it illegal for a group to come together to bargain or to collectively address grievances is against the Constitution's First Amendment. Nothing says a state or organization has to negotiate with the group wishing to collectively address it, but the strength in numbers let's the controlled group ensure that it's voice is heard.
The death of the union's will be the death of the free workplace. We already are creating a gulf of separation between the haves and have-nots in this country which is reducing our scientists and our ability to advance, each year the US creates less patents, because for most workers there is no gain in advancing an agenda that does not benefit them. Ford paid Mulally almost $40 million for 4 months of work, last year's bonus was 3.8 million shares of stock values at $58.5 million. Fifty eight million dollars for one year, and a bonus at that. Germany has a pay cap of 50x the lowest paid employee, in Germany Ford would have to pay the bottom workers over a million dollars to make that legal. Why is Germany such a productive country? Because workers don't see themselves as wage slaves for corporate leaders who make all the money.
Japan has a culture devoted to empowerment. The lower classes are expected to work and the upper classes are expected to take care of the lower classes, this extends to their business models.
America has more millionaires than any other country, some see this as America's greatness, some see this as American's greed.
And you think independent contract negotiations are better because you made bad contract decisions?
The voice of a group (ie. the "collective") will always be stronger than the voice of the individual. The state does not have to enter in to any specific contract with workers, and they can add their own requirements to that contract during negotiations. Saying that the collective bargaining process is bad because the workers want the ability to be heard as a group and to be protected as a group, as opposed to the more typical good old boy's network of advancement and protection, is pretty much the same thing as saying that you want people to completely fend for themselves.
I am surprised that you make so much less than your public counterpart (not doubting, just surprised) it's the opposite here in FL, also a right to work state. Most state workers make significantly less than private sector workers, but do enjoy better benefits. A private school teacher can expect to be paid $52k while their public counterpart is paid $41k.
Now I will agree collective bargaining is not a right, but freedom to assemble IS a right. Making it illegal for a group to come together to bargain or to collectively address grievances is against the Constitution's First Amendment. Nothing says a state or organization has to negotiate with the group wishing to collectively address it, but the strength in numbers let's the controlled group ensure that it's voice is heard.
The death of the union's will be the death of the free workplace. We already are creating a gulf of separation between the haves and have-nots in this country which is reducing our scientists and our ability to advance, each year the US creates less patents, because for most workers there is no gain in advancing an agenda that does not benefit them. Ford paid Mulally almost $40 million for 4 months of work, last year's bonus was 3.8 million shares of stock values at $58.5 million. Fifty eight million dollars for one year, and a bonus at that. Germany has a pay cap of 50x the lowest paid employee, in Germany Ford would have to pay the bottom workers over a million dollars to make that legal. Why is Germany such a productive country? Because workers don't see themselves as wage slaves for corporate leaders who make all the money.
Japan has a culture devoted to empowerment. The lower classes are expected to work and the upper classes are expected to take care of the lower classes, this extends to their business models.
America has more millionaires than any other country, some see this as America's greatness, some see this as American's greed.
"So you think collective bargaining should be eliminated because the state made bad contract decisions?"
No because the Union workers failed to meet their obligations as stated in the contract. Have you seen the Grades and the abilities of our graduating youth? LOL
We are not talking companies we are talking about Government workers who have failed to meet or exceed their contracted obligations.
America has more millionaires than any other country, some see this as America's greatness, some see this as American's greed.
And some see it as they have worked their asses off to get what they have. Not to mention the paid attention in School.
No because the Union workers failed to meet their obligations as stated in the contract. Have you seen the Grades and the abilities of our graduating youth? LOL
We are not talking companies we are talking about Government workers who have failed to meet or exceed their contracted obligations.
America has more millionaires than any other country, some see this as America's greatness, some see this as American's greed.
And some see it as they have worked their asses off to get what they have. Not to mention the paid attention in School.
So because students are not making a good score on a standardized test we should fire teachers?
Can we take the kids out of their homes and put them in the Dept of Children and Families while we are at it?
Can we take the kids out of their homes and put them in the Dept of Children and Families while we are at it?
"So because students are not making a good score on a standardized test we should fire teachers?"
No where in what I wrote did I say fire anyone. The spoiled Brat days are leaving starting with new ethics clauses in all contracts,Where a teacher not achieving their goal are FIRED and those that do be rewarded.
"Can we take the kids out of their homes and put them in the Dept of Children and Families while we are at it?"
No but corporal Punishment back in schools would be a good start. And set artificial standards back to some degree of learning. One last thing, let the State set the corricullum not the Unions. Maintain a degree of PHYSICAL Education!!!! The best paid teacher should be the GYM teacher.
No where in what I wrote did I say fire anyone. The spoiled Brat days are leaving starting with new ethics clauses in all contracts,Where a teacher not achieving their goal are FIRED and those that do be rewarded.
"Can we take the kids out of their homes and put them in the Dept of Children and Families while we are at it?"
No but corporal Punishment back in schools would be a good start. And set artificial standards back to some degree of learning. One last thing, let the State set the corricullum not the Unions. Maintain a degree of PHYSICAL Education!!!! The best paid teacher should be the GYM teacher.
"Japan has a culture devoted to empowerment. The lower classes are expected to work and the upper classes are expected to take care of the lower classes, this extends to their business models."
Business model? The only country in Asia surpassing economically is China.
Did you Know that Japan has a larger Union Base than we do and they have been in a 8 year recession?
And not one teacher is a Union member But their standard rate of Graduating from secondary schools doubles our? And on the Same testing their score averages 16 points higher than ours and by those standards they will hold the highest scores world wide for generations to come.
Business model? The only country in Asia surpassing economically is China.
Did you Know that Japan has a larger Union Base than we do and they have been in a 8 year recession?
And not one teacher is a Union member But their standard rate of Graduating from secondary schools doubles our? And on the Same testing their score averages 16 points higher than ours and by those standards they will hold the highest scores world wide for generations to come.
"The death of the union's will be the death of the free workplace. We already are creating a gulf of separation between the haves and have-nots in this country which is reducing our scientists and our ability to advance, each year the US creates less patents, because for most workers there is no gain in advancing an agenda that does not benefit them. Ford paid Mulally almost $40 million for 4 months of work, last year's bonus was 3.8 million shares of stock values at $58.5 million. Fifty eight million dollars for one year, and a bonus at that. Germany has a pay cap of 50x the lowest paid employee, in Germany Ford would have to pay the bottom workers over a million dollars to make that legal. Why is Germany such a productive country? Because workers don't see themselves as wage slaves for corporate leaders who make all the money."
Again we are not talking about companies we are talking Government big Difference. UAW workers are Entitled to stock options with no limit, The company invites them to invest, when did they stop? The employee has stopped buying stock on the orders of the Union and have asked that they contribute to POLITICAL opposition to their own employer. Where does this make any sense to any one?
Again we are not talking about companies we are talking Government big Difference. UAW workers are Entitled to stock options with no limit, The company invites them to invest, when did they stop? The employee has stopped buying stock on the orders of the Union and have asked that they contribute to POLITICAL opposition to their own employer. Where does this make any sense to any one?
Unions are very important for a variety of reasons.
Unions got us unemployment benefits.
Unions got us Social Security.
Unions got us the 40 hour works week.
Unions got us mandatory overtime pay.
They also gave us drinking and dope smoking at a park while on lunch, they also gave us chronism and an unbreakable bond for family based livelihood. In other words if you dont know somebody or have a family member you cant be hired, seen it many times, been a part of it as well. They also gave us illegal walk outs, strikes that were endless, and last but certainly not least they have given us a growing economy in China and other foreign countries. But not our own. It is time to say enough.
Unions got us unemployment benefits.
Unions got us Social Security.
Unions got us the 40 hour works week.
Unions got us mandatory overtime pay.
They also gave us drinking and dope smoking at a park while on lunch, they also gave us chronism and an unbreakable bond for family based livelihood. In other words if you dont know somebody or have a family member you cant be hired, seen it many times, been a part of it as well. They also gave us illegal walk outs, strikes that were endless, and last but certainly not least they have given us a growing economy in China and other foreign countries. But not our own. It is time to say enough.